BattleTech 'Mercenaries' Kickstarter - Playtest Portal for New Core Rulebook

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Vulcan**

Kagetora wrote:
Bob Lorgar wrote:
except for the fact that there were some mechs which were highly disadvantaged because they were practically walking bombs asking to be killed by one.

Thunderbolt?

Pretty sure it had a ton of MG ammo in the CT. IIRC.

Under normal rules a ton of MG ammo in the ARM will still gut the whole 'mech. Even an Atlas (17 arm internals, 21 side torso internals, 31 center torso internals, and the MG ammo has only done about 1/3 it's total damage...).

While I'm in general fine with ammo explosion rules as-is - ammo explosions are the great equalizer - having even a HALF ton of small arms ammo being able to gut any 'mech seems excessive.

**Ghaz**

From the Playtest Forum

Xotl wrote:We talk about the logic behind both in the livestream. But in brief:

Cutting side tables saves room and lookup time: unambiguously good. Cutting side tables further rewards attackers who have the skill and/or speed to hone in on weak enemy side torsos, or defenders who have the skill and/or speed to keep a damaged side torso shielded from enemy fire. In theory: good. In practice: might make mechs too easy to delete, especially those with XL and XXL engines. Broadly, we think it offers better tactical gameplay while simplifying things. We’ll see.

The ammo explosion change is about trying to make a rule that makes for interesting gameplay while pleasing both people who want ammo explosions to hurt a lot and people who want it to hurt less than it does now. There is no objective correct answer here: it’s a pure vibes approach to a purely vibes gameplay issue. If people like the result, we’ll change it. If they don’t, we’ll axe it. It will be hard to make a pure gameplay argument for this, though perhaps something comes up that makes the rule unusable at the table that we missed in our discussion and limited private playtest phases.

You’ll notice there was nothing about realism in there. That’s because frankly we’re designing a game 1st, and a reality simulator for thirty-first-century millennium giant robots somewhere around 34th.

Looking forward to your playtest reports.

**BrookM**

I've seen interesting discourse so far on these two proposed changes, will be using them in our upcoming campaign.

**Kagetora**

Vulcan wrote:
Kagetora wrote:
Bob Lorgar wrote:
except for the fact that there were some mechs which were highly disadvantaged because they were practically walking bombs asking to be killed by one.

Thunderbolt?

Pretty sure it had a ton of MG ammo in the CT. IIRC.

Under normal rules a ton of MG ammo in the ARM will still gut the whole 'mech. Even an Atlas (17 arm internals, 21 side torso internals, 31 center torso internals, and the MG ammo has only done about 1/3 it's total damage...).

While I'm in general fine with ammo explosion rules as-is - ammo explosions are the great equalizer - having even a HALF ton of small arms ammo being able to gut any 'mech seems excessive.

Yeah, but the point was you could hit the TBolt in the CT with a single leftover LRM missile in a grouping and get a CT Crit, kaboom.

Did it happen? Once or twice in my BT gaming experience (although not with just that LRM hit). Was it hilarious? Yes. Was it stupid? Also yes.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Back in the 'good old days' the risk of ammo explosion was one of the downsides of ballistic weapons which generated less heat than energy weapons

managing ammo and explosions vs managing heat and weapon weight

but energy weapons suffer far less of a heat penalty now with more efficient double/clan heat sinks etc so i guess removing at least some of that penelty from ballistics is probably warrented

(although i personally found the original version of both made for a more interesting game)

**Albertorius**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Back in the 'good old days' the risk of ammo explosion was one of the downsides of ballistic weapons which generated less heat than energy weapons

managing ammo and explosions vs managing heat and weapon weight

but energy weapons suffer far less of a heat penalty now with more efficient double/clan heat sinks etc so i guess removing at least some of that penelty from ballistics is probably warrented

(although i personally found the original version of both made for a more interesting game)

Agreed, except maybe for the medium laser, which is still stupidly good at every era.

**Kagetora**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Back in the 'good old days' the risk of ammo explosion was one of the downsides of ballistic weapons which generated less heat than energy weapons

managing ammo and explosions vs managing heat and weapon weight

but energy weapons suffer far less of a heat penalty now with more efficient double/clan heat sinks etc so i guess removing at least some of that penelty from ballistics is probably warrented

(although i personally found the original version of both made for a more interesting game)

It wasn't just heat vs weight. "Back in the day," you had to balance four things. Survivability, lethality, speed, and heat. You could be fantastic at one. Good at two, mediocre at three, gak at all of them. Armor, Damage, Speed, Heat. That was the entire POINT of BT, when it started.

Then the creators added IS tech, with a few "improved" weapons, but more importantly, DHS and XL engines. Those last two things literally ruined BT as everyone knew it up until that point. Suddenly, heat meant nothing, and I could move faster...giving my opponent MUCH more difficult "to hit" numbers, while retaining lethality and survivability.

In come the Clans. Again, every balancing point gets tossed out. Now everything, across the board, is better.

Is this WRONG? Well...no. It depends on which game you want to play. Fast and deadly? Play with the later rules, after the Grey Death Legion finds the SLC, or even later after the Clan invasion. Or, repetitively, even later than that. Slower, more methodical? Play during or just before 3025. Actually have to make meaningful decisions between the four variables above, as opposed to just min/maxing the fastest way to obliterate a foe.

I'm old. I know which one I prefer, but I'm not going to fault anyone for a different choice, as long as mine is still valid and supported. And it always will be, as I own the rulebooks.

**cole1114**

Clans getting case everywhere is a big boost for them in particular, a timber wolf N will take a max of 10 damage if its CT machine gun ammo goes off. Blood Asp primes can get both of their gauss rifles popped without losing either side torso and still have their arm weapons and CT srm firing.

**Vulcan**

Kagetora wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Kagetora wrote:
Bob Lorgar wrote:
except for the fact that there were some mechs which were highly disadvantaged because they were practically walking bombs asking to be killed by one.

Thunderbolt?

Pretty sure it had a ton of MG ammo in the CT. IIRC.

Under normal rules a ton of MG ammo in the ARM will still gut the whole 'mech. Even an Atlas (17 arm internals, 21 side torso internals, 31 center torso internals, and the MG ammo has only done about 1/3 it's total damage...).

While I'm in general fine with ammo explosion rules as-is - ammo explosions are the great equalizer - having even a HALF ton of small arms ammo being able to gut any 'mech seems excessive.

Yeah, but the point was you could hit the TBolt in the CT with a single leftover LRM missile in a grouping and get a CT Crit, kaboom. Did it happen? Once or twice in my BT gaming experience (although not with just that LRM hit). Was it hilarious? Yes. Was it stupid? Also yes.

Or that same leftover LRM can get a CT crit, roll three crits, and take out your engine. Or two and take out your gyro. Or if you use floating crits, Head crit and hit the cockpit. Or a single Gauss, AC/20, or Clan ER-PPC can just take the head off entirely.

If this is a problem for you, then perhaps BattleTech is not the game you want.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albertorius wrote:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Back in the 'good old days' the risk of ammo explosion was one of the downsides of ballistic weapons which generated less heat than energy weapons

managing ammo and explosions vs managing heat and weapon weight

but energy weapons suffer far less of a heat penalty now with more efficient double/clan heat sinks etc so i guess removing at least some of that penelty from ballistics is probably warrented

(although i personally found the original version of both made for a more interesting game)

Agreed, except maybe for the medium laser, which is still stupidly good at every era.

The Medium Laser is good... but short ranged. If you depend overmuch on ML, you're vulnerable to being shot to pieces from something with a longer-ranged weapon and never being able to meaningfully respond.