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 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Find something that allows making attacks against a friendly unit.

Its not a friendly unit. Its still an enemy unit, only the model is considered to be a friendly model, according to the sorthis mirror rule. We have a friendly model in an enemy unit, attacking its own unit.

I do not know what your point is here, when I said "Find something that allows making attacks against a friendly unit" I was talking about the friendly model attacking itself. I was not talking about the rest of the unit.

The unit in question remains an enemy unit. You dont need any rule which allows you to attack a friendly unit, because the now friendly model is not attacking a friendly unit, it attacks an enemy unit.

 p5freak wrote:
The unit in question remains an enemy unit. You dont need any rule which allows you to attack a friendly unit, because the now friendly model is not attacking a friendly unit, it attacks an enemy unit.

A single model unit is not an enemy to itself ever.

If you think it is, there needs to be a citation saying such.

Sortis mirror is the citation. Its a friendly model in an enemy unit, attacking its own unit.

Can we agree on that even if by RaW there are some aspects that are or can be considered unclear, it is extremely clear what the intended use of the item is? I.E. it was clearly meant that the model under the influence of the mirror can attack and destroy its own unit, including itself?

Intention is irrelevant RAW trumps RAI

"I would interpret it as being reasonably clear but badly worded"

it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes.

"If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit, the bearer counts as having destroyed that unit for all rules purposes."

So if I have a unit of 2 plus models model A is removed counts as a model from my army gaining any relevant buffs e.g. if I'm the same faction and it's within a relevant aura and attacks the rest. if it kills the rest of the unit the unit counts as destroyed however it itself is not destroyed as it currently counts as a model from my army and for all rules purposes and so will not be hit by any excess attacks so only the original unit is destroyed now its attacks have resolved it swaps back to the same unit or counts as its own unit in the event its unit died but the bearer gets a killpoint

With a single model it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes until it has resolved its attacks but it is not eligible to make any attacks as it has no unit to attack ergo the original rule never ceases so RAW

it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes for the rest if the game so it swaps player permanently

Any earlier explanation where it attacks its own unit to attack itself does not work because it counts as a seperate unit when it swaps player control and so if attack its own unit were interpreted as meaning it could attack itself it would always attack itself and never the unit it came from

Back to intent - do I think GW intended this - NO - but as stated intent is irrelevant RAW its what it does and RAW while badly worded and perhaps undesirable is not unclear

How could a unit be destroyed as a result of these attacks?

A unit could be destroyed as a result of Battleshock, but that is *all* attacks, not just these.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
There is no rule against making attacks against friendly units. Nowhere in the Making Attacks rules are units or models referred to as friendly or enemy. They are always referred to as model making the attack, target or target unit.

When allocating attacks in the Shooting phase, you must select enemy units.
When allocating attacks in the Fight phase, you must select enemy units.

However, when resolving attacks a model makes because of Sorthis' Mirror, they are directed to make attacks against their own unit. They are part of their own unit. While the rules for Sorthis' Mirror do state the model is part of your army, that doesn't change the fact they are part of their own unit. Therefore those attacks can be made against themselves.

This is open and shut rules a written. I challenge you to find a global rule stating otherwise.

Find something that allows making attacks against a friendly unit.

There is an FAQ that disallows it too, (Not that it is needed as nothing says you can attack friendly units) unless that FAQ has been ninja removed.

Friendly is used 5 times the Core Book FAQ v1.7. None of those forbid you making attacks against a friendly unit. If you are referring to a different FAQ, please provide the reference.

 p5freak wrote:
Sortis mirror is the citation. Its a friendly model in an enemy unit, attacking its own unit.

Where in Sortis mirror does it say that he model can attack himself? I must have missed it.

Emphasis added

Codex Thousand Sons, p.49 wrote:Each time the bearer is selected to fight, instead of fighting, you can select one enemy INFANTRY model with a Leadership characteristic of 9 or less that is within Engagement Range of it. If you do, the selected enemy model immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit: until it has resolved these attacks it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes. If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit, the bearer counts as having destroyed that unit for all rules purposes.

As we all know, attacks that wound are then allocated to a model in the unit. What unit is the attacking model in?

 alextroy wrote:
Emphasis added

Codex Thousand Sons, p.49 wrote:Each time the bearer is selected to fight, instead of fighting, you can select one enemy INFANTRY model with a Leadership characteristic of 9 or less that is within Engagement Range of it. If you do, the selected enemy model immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit: until it has resolved these attacks it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes. If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit, the bearer counts as having destroyed that unit for all rules purposes.

As we all know, attacks that wound are then allocated to a model in the unit. What unit is the attacking model in?

In context, that means the rest of the unit, not himself if it is a single model. Because as we know, "it is treated as being a model from your army" and models have no permission to attack themselves, and if it is a single model unit there is still no permission for the model to attack itself.

Why don't models have permission to attack themselves again?

I know they can't target themselves, but the mirror does the targeting in this case, and codex overrides rulebook.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why don't models have permission to attack themselves again?

Show me the rules that say they can attack themselves. I have not found any.

The rules system is permissive. You can only do things the rules allow you to do.

I think I found the problem, guys.

People are thinking that a model being affected by the mirror are going through the normal Fight sequence. They are not.

The mirror simply states that the affected model makes close combat attacks against its own unit. It does NOT say that the affected model attacks as if it were selected to Fight. Ergo, any rules for selecting eligible targets are moot, since you're 'skipping that step', so to speak.

Since the actual attacking rules don't mention friendly/enemy, a model can, indeed, attack itself.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why don't models have permission to attack themselves again?

Show me the rules that say they can attack themselves. I have not found any.

The rules system is permissive. You can only do things the rules allow you to do.

The Mirror forces them to attack their own unit. Units are made up of models.

The permission to self-harm is right there - by attacking the unit, they have permission to allocate wounds to models in that unit. Something would have to remove the permission again.

To interpret otherwise would be absurd, because then attacking doesn't work. "You have permission to attack my unit, but not my models. Sorry!"

Unit ABCDE =1 friendly unit

Unit A = 1 enemy unit BCDE =1 friendly unit

Unit A attacks the Unit it came from BCDE

Unit A is never given permission to attack itself

Unit A returns to friendly unit or forms new friendly unit




If solo

Unit A =1 friendly unit

Unit A = 1 enemy unit

Unit A attacks the Unit it came from (friendly unit) which no longer exists A unable to resolve

Sequence ends



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why don't models have permission to attack themselves again?

Show me the rules that say they can attack themselves. I have not found any.

The rules system is permissive. You can only do things the rules allow you to do.

The Mirror forces them to attack their own unit. Units are made up of models.

The permission to self-harm is right there - by attacking the unit, they have permission to allocate wounds to models in that unit. Something would have to remove the permission again.

To interpret otherwise would be absurd, because then attacking doesn't work. "You have permission to attack my unit, but not my models. Sorry!"

No permission is there because its not part of the unit at the point it makes the attack its not part of that unit at the point wounds are allocated it is a seperate unit A unit cannot simultaneously belong to both players it only has permission to attack the unit it came from

To interpret it your way you get this sequence

Unit ABCDE =1 friendly unit

Unit A = 1 enemy unit BCDE =1 friendly unit

Unit A attacks Unit A BCDE never impacted

Unit A is only given permission to attack its unit which is a unit of 1 model

Unit A returns to friendly unit If it lives




Essentialy you can validly interpret the RAW as saying it attacks the Unit it came from or you can interpret as it attacks only itself depending on what you interpret "its unit" to mean but it can't be both depending on whats preferable its not a schrodinger cat kind of situation. It's not part of the original unit until its A are resolved


It's also clear the majority think it means the unit that it came from which creates the secondary problem that A are ineligible if there is just one model so it never makes the A that it needs to in order the condition that returns control to the other player

What about Unit AB, where A makes 15 attacks and kills B after 2?

Where is the permission to count Model A as different from the Unit AB in such case?

Are you implying the Mirror gives the user permission to, on the fly, count a model in an enemy unit not only as in it's army but also create a whole new unit? How can that unit then be destroyed by a result of these attacks?

It is simpler to say a model can attack its own unit (including allocating wounds to itself, as a member of said unit) then it is to create a whole new unit on the fly, and then assume with no evidence that created unit ceases to be after the Mirror is done.

Exactly. Nowhere in the Core Rules nor in Sorthis' Mirror is it stated that the model selected to attack is no longer part of its own unit. It does become part of your army, but it it is still part of its own unit. As such, any Wounds allocated to its own unit can, and in certain cases must, be allocated to itself.

This is simply the rules as written. There is no rule stating a model cannot make attacks against itself or its own unit. There are simply almost no cases where targeting restrictions allows you to do so. Sorthis' Mirror is one, if not the only, such case.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What about Unit AB, where A makes 15 attacks and kills B after 2?

Where is the permission to count Model A as different from the Unit AB in such case?

Are you implying the Mirror gives the user permission to, on the fly, count a model in an enemy unit not only as in it's army but also create a whole new unit? How can that unit then be destroyed by a result of these attacks?

It is simpler to say a model can attack its own unit (including allocating wounds to itself, as a member of said unit) then it is to create a whole new unit on the fly, and then assume with no evidence that created unit ceases to be after the Mirror is done.

A makes 15 Attacks B dies the unit counts as destroyed As attacks are resolved A returns to there owners control. there is no problem or conflict with that, excess attacks are wasted all the time your approach may be simpler and it could be written that way but it isn't


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Exactly. Nowhere in the Core Rules nor in Sorthis' Mirror is it stated that the model selected to attack is no longer part of its own unit. It does become part of your army, but it it is still part of its own unit. As such, any Wounds allocated to its own unit can, and in certain cases must, be allocated to itself.

This is simply the rules as written. There is no rule stating a model cannot make attacks against itself or its own unit. There are simply almost no cases where targeting restrictions allows you to do so. Sorthis' Mirror is one, if not the only, such case.

Well maybe page 2 of the core rules

Units
Models move and fight in units. A unit can have one or more models chosen from a single datasheet. All units in the same army are friendly units, and all models in the same army are friendly models. All units in your opponent’s army are enemy units, and all models in your opponent’s army are enemy models. If a rule affects ‘units’ or ‘models’ without specifying that they are friendly or enemy, then it affects either ‘all units’ or ‘all models’, regardless of whose army they are in.

You cannot have a unit that is both a friendly unit and an enemy unit

The second that the model "until it has resolved these attacks it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes." It is a seperate unit


Also page 21
Which Models Fight
When a unit makes close combat attacks, only the models in that unit that are either within Engagement Range (pg 4) of an enemy
unit, or that are within ½" of another model from their own unit that is itself within ½" of an enemy unit, can fight.

So as a prerequisite to fighting your friendly unit must be in engagement range of an enemy unit so they have to be seperate units and from opposing armies you can't attack yourself (excluding cyclops demolition vehicle which has specific rules for targeting friendly go forgeworld)

So if their coherency is greater than 1" between models, you have protection from the Mirror, by your reading, since a model leaves it's unit, joins your army, tries to attack, is outside of engagement range, fails to resolve attacks, and then reverts to its original unit again.

That's the "the model becomes a separate enemy unit" interpretation" as I see it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Sortis mirror is the citation. Its a friendly model in an enemy unit, attacking its own unit.

Where in Sortis mirror does it say that he model can attack himself? I must have missed it.

It has been said multiple times here. The model makes attacks against its own unit. The strat is a special rule, overriding the general rules.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Sortis mirror is the citation. Its a friendly model in an enemy unit, attacking its own unit.

Where in Sortis mirror does it say that he model can attack himself? I must have missed it.

It has been said multiple times here. The model makes attacks against its own unit. The strat is a special rule, overriding the general rules.

So your saying it can only ever attack itself and never the unit it came from because it is a seperate unit at the point it makes the attacks?

The problem with ps freaks statement is when he says its a friendly model in an enemy unit which it can't be. It is temporarily an enemy model and unit of 1 and a friendly unit of the remainder

U02dah4 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Sortis mirror is the citation. Its a friendly model in an enemy unit, attacking its own unit.

Where in Sortis mirror does it say that he model can attack himself? I must have missed it.

It has been said multiple times here. The model makes attacks against its own unit. The strat is a special rule, overriding the general rules.

So your saying it can only ever attack itself and never the unit it came from because it is a seperate unit at the point it makes the attacks?

Only if you accept that it becomes a separate unit (which is the current argument).

I don't believe it becomes a separate unit.

It cannot be the same it goes against pg 2 as you cannot be both friendly and enemy

and 21 of the core rules because you can only make attacks against enemy's

If you have both you end up with schrodinger unit that both can and can't attack itself depending on whose determining whether it is friendly or enemy

It is clear that it becomes an enemy for all rules purposes and units are a rules purpose ergo it's an enemy unit

I would also point out that belief isn't really a rules argument you need some supporting evidence that you can have a frenemy unit and how frenemy units interact in combat which blatantly don't exist in the core rules or the specific rules of the interaction you would need several paragraphs to cover all interactions of frenemy units

eg. Take something as simple as allocating a save as the unit contains my models and my units being attacked I feel I should allocate the first wound to your model. However you might feel that it's your unit because it contains your model and you would rather allocate the wound to my heavy weapon. What happens if your model dies first do you then lose all say because now its back to being a friendly unit

Or if your opponent responds with a stratagem that gives a unut you control +1sv do all the models in the unit get it or does the enemy model not or is it an ineligible target because it is a frenemy and so not a friendly unit.

How does it interact with rules like doctrina imperatives do all models benefit does the unit stop benefitting does your model not benefit but the rest do

Essentially your argument causes most of the rules to break and if it causes the game rules to break its not a good argument when the alternative is that they function normally

It says you cannot be a friendly and enemy unit

Nothing about friendly and enemy model.

We are all in agreement after the sequence you end up with one friendly model and the rest as enemy's

If you cannot be a friendly and enemy unit you have made my point

"it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes." From the og ref so it swaps army

From core page 2 "all models in the same army are friendly models" "all models in your opponent’s army are enemy models"so its a friendly the rest are enemies

You then move on to attacks against its own unit meaning the friendly or the enemies depending on your interpretation and have rulled out both

You’re all rabbit-holing HARD.

U02dah4 wrote:
It cannot be the same it goes against pg 2 as you cannot be both friendly and enemy

The rule is "All units in the same army are friendly units, and all models in the same army are friendly models. All units in your opponent’s army are enemy units, and all models in your opponent’s army are enemy models." Sorthis' Mirror does not change the unit into a friendly unit, only the model. This does lead to the curious case of a friendly model in an enemy unit. However, the rule does not say that is impossible!

and 21 of the core rules because you can only make attacks against enemy's

There is no such rule. The core rules do not include a way to target a friendly unit, but they do not forbid it. Besides, Sorthis' Mirror directs your currently friendly model to make attacks against an enemy unit... which it happens to be part of.

If you have both you end up with schrodinger unit that both can and can't attack itself depending on whose determining whether it is friendly or enemy

It is clear that it becomes an enemy for all rules purposes and units are a rules purpose ergo it's an enemy unit

I would also point out that belief isn't really a rules argument you need some supporting evidence that you can have a frenemy unit and how frenemy units interact in combat which blatantly don't exist in the core rules or the specific rules of the interaction you would need several paragraphs to cover all interactions of frenemy units

eg. Take something as simple as allocating a save as the unit contains my models and my units being attacked I feel I should allocate the first wound to your model. However you might feel that it's your unit because it contains your model and you would rather allocate the wound to my heavy weapon. What happens if your model dies first do you then lose all say because now its back to being a friendly unit

Or if your opponent responds with a stratagem that gives a unut you control +1sv do all the models in the unit get it or does the enemy model not or is it an ineligible target because it is a frenemy and so not a friendly unit.

How does it interact with rules like doctrina imperatives do all models benefit does the unit stop benefitting does your model not benefit but the rest do

Essentially your argument causes most of the rules to break and if it causes the game rules to break its not a good argument when the alternative is that they function normally

No need for this mythical frenemy unit. The unit is an enemy unit. It just happens to contain a friendly model for a limited period of times. All rules must be applied as so.

You can use a rule that targets a friendly model on that friendly model, but not a rule that targets a friendly unit. The opposite goes for your opponent. He can't use rules that target friendly models on that enemy model and he can't use rules that target enemy units on that unit.

Any rule that either of you use that targets that unit works on all the units in that unit, both the one that was taken over and all the others as well. So yes, doctrine imperatives continue to work on the model targeted by Sorthis' mirror because it is in the unit.

Problem is you say it creates a friendly model in an enemy unit but don't provide any evidence that's the case

Your unable to answer the questions i asked so you say matter of factly how it works but you have not provided any evidence - any rules quote for how something like doctrina imperatives or a +1 save strat would work - its just skipping over the issue and pretending it doesn't exist

So if I take your quote
"Any rule that either of you use that targets that unit works on all the units in that unit, both the one that was taken over and all the others as well." Can you provide a rules quote supporting this for frenemy units.

Because I'm not saying you couldn't resolve it that way. I'm saying that there is a gap in the rules that govern that interaction so they break as nothing tells you to resolve it that way

Units with friendly models are friendly units units with enemy models are enemy units where is the rule that governs a unit with both friendly and enemy models - it doesn't exist because it can't happen if I'm wrong show me the frenemy rule quote

I feel like it is disingenuous to say "no one answered the problems I pointed out" while also ignoring problems pointed out with your own position (e.g. units with greater than 1" between models being immune to the Mirror, units being destroyed by the attacks, etc).

Your questions will rightfully be ignored if you ignore earlier questions from the other side first!

I'm not exactly sure what your point is either. You're essentially saying "provide evidence a friendly model can exist in an enemy unit". Well, your evidence is the mirror, which says that you pick a model in an enemy unit, and it becomes friendly to you for a bit.

Not much more evidence is required, because that's what it says (a specific codex rule). In order for the specific codex rule to do anything else (such as spontaneously generate, utilize, and disband a unit on the fly), it would have to say that it does so. But there is no reason to suspect this, because the only objection to the "friendly models can't be in enemy units" claim is "the brb implies that's impossible" which doesn't work. Because the BRB says lots of things are impossible (e.g. shooting with heavy weapons after advancing) that the more specific codex rules override.