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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Errrrr....yeah? But I've always found the "no heavy weapons for Nurgle" restriction silly (made even more so by the current 30k Death Guard rules that I mentioned up thread). So why not just give Death Guard proper Havocs (and allow Havocs to take special weapons again )?

Like I said: What they could/should be armed with is a different conversation, and I don't necessarily disagree with you (and neither does GW, apparently, given the weapons they added to Plague Marines at the start of 8th). However, I was just answering Jid's question about what a Death Guard Havoc Squad would look like with those parameters (access to special weapons).

Honestly, it's not the world's sexiest squad - it was just two meltas, two plasmas, and a cool looking Champion - and it doesn't have the same allure as, say, giant plague Terminators with huge scythes, but in removing it I feel it was another area where the faction shrunk, and something they could redo. Now, if GW were more flexible, and didn't have to have a specific kit for the unit, and we could do it with regular Plague Marines, then wonderful, but they don't work like that these days. I mean, remember when Death Guard Terminator Lords/Sorcerer Lords didn't get some of the DG rules because they weren't actually DG miniatures, just transplanted regular CSM minis? That's the mentality we're facing now.

Ehhhh...it's less that "gw" isn't flexible like that anymore, and more like the 40k rules writers aren't. Tons of conversion opportunities in 30k. Just sayin. Please don't yell at me for the lack of Xenos in 30k.

I could not possibly care less about playing a version of Thousand Sons from before the Rubric of Ahriman.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I could not possibly care less about playing a version of Thousand Sons from before the Rubric of Ahriman.

That isn't the point. The point is: GW is perfectly capable of writing rules that don't incorporate the aggravating "NMNR" paradigm into them. No reason that 1ksons can't have psychic dreadnoughts, for example.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
... so why does "Plague Surgeon" need to be a specific entry? Because it has a name?

Because it's fun? Ever consider that? There should be a Plague Surgeon and a Berzerker-Surgeon as two distinct entities with their own minis because it's fun. But you're the guy who thinks that there should only be 1 Marine Codex, and sub-factions shouldn't be a thing, so why are you even discussing this?

And it's reasoning like yours we have 10 entries for Marine Captains. It's not necessary.

No its reasoning like Terminator Captains Riding Bikes. The multiple Captain Entries are - generally - based around statline/keyword modifying wargear. They could have done one entry, but there'd still be That Guy trying to put a Phobos Scouting Infiltrating Captain in Terminator Armor on a Bike.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
No, it... really does. Having more marines on the release schedule means less non-marines on the release schedule. That is how time works.

You're playing Zero Sum. Fewer Marine releases could also mean fewer sculptors employed. Aside from only having X people to design Y models over a year, they're also going to factor in B - the cost of making and marketing the model kit - recouped over C - the time its going to take to make it profitable. If it wouldn't pay to make new Warpspiders, they're not going to do it just to keep some sculptor employed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I could not possibly care less about playing a version of Thousand Sons from before the Rubric of Ahriman.

That isn't the point. The point is: GW is perfectly capable of writing rules that don't incorporate the aggravating "NMNR" paradigm into them. No reason that 1ksons can't have psychic dreadnoughts, for example.

To be honest, they should. BA have it and BA/1K are mirrors (psychic strength, fatal flaw, etc etc) while BA/SW are Preferred Enemies. Most of the Loyalist/Heretic Marines have those two paradigms. UM are mirrors of Black Legion, Preferred with Word Bearers - Imperial Fists are both to Iron Legion etc. When they built the BA Libby Dread they should have built a 1KSons alternate sprue.

I think 'should' is a tricky question to answer, different people want such wildy different things from Chaos as an overall faction. No solution that GW ever came up with would satisfy everyone.

Personally I'd rather be able to mix and match more with Chaos as a whole. As Mad Doc said:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
... Chaos is so….chaotic in terms of military organisation...

It would be nice if that could be better reflected on the tabletop.

But regardless since GW has made the decision to spin some 'legions' out as their own factions I think the more pertinent question is whether they are unique and functional enough on the tabletop, and if not what do they need to get there.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I could not possibly care less about playing a version of Thousand Sons from before the Rubric of Ahriman.

That isn't the point. The point is: GW is perfectly capable of writing rules that don't incorporate the aggravating "NMNR" paradigm into them. No reason that 1ksons can't have psychic dreadnoughts, for example.

They very well could have ported the existing Osiron Contemptor to 40k the same as they did to the general Contemptor. Your guess is as good as mine why they didn't.

Breton wrote:I doubt EC breaks out until Fulgrim is due - so I'd be surprised to see it in 10th. But I wouldn't be surprised to see some Kharn/Typhus/etc level characters come out along with a resurgence for Fabius Bile.

Late 10th, or early-to-mid-11th at a guess. In the meantime, how about redone CSM Bikers - and the return of Doomrider for the EC? I guess some might prefer a Lucius resculpt, though.

Gert wrote:The current options are the Primaris Captain, Power Armour Captain, Terminator Captain, Gravis Captain, and Gravis Captain with MC Heavy Boltrife. The latter two were where the issue of excess datasheets is often highlighted as the only difference between the two units was the Bolstorm Gauntlet and Boltrifle.

Thanks Gert - I was working of memory, and thought the Proper SM Captain on Bike and With Jump Pack were their own datasheets.

AnomanderRake wrote:Fundamental problem with splitting off the Marked Legions to their own books: "Can I have Tzeentch Havocs? No, because GW hasn't made a Thousand Sons-specific Havoc kit? Um...okay?"

As I said on the previous page, NMNR really messed things up here - some of these units should still exist, but as a kitbash opportunity until GW gets around to making a specific kit in a future wave.

Question for 1K Sons players - what other CSM units do we see mentioned as being part of the 1K Sons in the lore, aside from Rubrics and Scarabs?

AnomanderRake wrote:I think the "no, there should be a complete separate range of unique sculpts of every model for every different Marine Legion!" would be a more defensible position if, say, Warp Spiders weren't still resin dumped into metal molds originally made in the late '90s.

Honestly, I think Warp Spiders should have gotten the Dark Reaper slot in the last big Eldar Release - Reapers are now on their fourth kit over the years, while Spiders are still on the original sculpts, which is weird to me.

Jidmah wrote:Ah, I guess I wasn't being very clear, I'll rephrase it.

If there was a unit of havocs in Codex: DG for 9th edition with access to nothing but the special weapons of old, how would it be different from a unit of plague marines?

If we assume that, for whatever reason, GW have decreed that 40k lore states that the DG don't have heavy weapon infantry, there's still a spot for an infantry unit with greater firepower than the current Plague Marine datasheet. Havocs give us the structure for such a unit - everyone bar the Champion has to take a special (or ranged plague?) weapon, with the Champion getting combi-weapon access.

In an edition where we're seeing the return of fire points to transports, and disembarking after transport movement (I think that's been confirmed as a thing), that gives the DG an opportunity to make a mess of a target by surgical application of firepower (or plaguepower). It also gives you a unit that has a different flavour to the CSM equivalent, which I know I would find somewhat interesting.

Arachnofiend wrote:No, it... really does. Having more marines on the release schedule means less non-marines on the release schedule. That is how time works.

More marine kits on the release schedule also help to finance more non-marine kits on the release schedule - 9th feels like a reasonable example of that process at work, with significant waves for a number of non-loyal SM factions going on during it.

Here's hoping this is a pattern that continues during 10th.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I mean we ended up with a unit called Eightbound that come in boxes of 3 and units of 6. How did that pass muster???

Aye, that should probably have been 4 & 8, but you know what you say about GW and opportunities...

Gadzilla666 wrote:Errrrr....yeah? But I've always found the "no heavy weapons for Nurgle" restriction silly (made even more so by the current 30k Death Guard rules that I mentioned up thread). So why not just give Death Guard proper Havocs (and allow Havocs to take special weapons again )?

It's certainly an odd change between the two time periods, but it's also one that seems to have stuck now.

Wyldhunt wrote:EDIT: And the same applies to loyalists too. DW and GK are a bit more complicated, but SW and BA could probably have their meaningful rules options put on a single page each, and then include the handful of datasheets for units that absolutely, positively need to be unique units instead of just being rolled into generic datasheets.

Please get your mind out of the gutter regarding this, Wyldhunt - I'm hoping we'll see that Codex: Dark Angels for 10th sees a return to a proper book for BA/BT/DA/DW/SW, with all their units in the book - and units like the Wolf Priest (which should be a Chaplain/Apothecary hybrid, not just a Chaplain in a Wolf Skull) getting their true role restored.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I could not possibly care less about playing a version of Thousand Sons from before the Rubric of Ahriman.

That isn't the point. The point is: GW is perfectly capable of writing rules that don't incorporate the aggravating "NMNR" paradigm into them. No reason that 1ksons can't have psychic dreadnoughts, for example.

Psychic dreadnought (or Sorcerer Hellbrute, at least) is a good shout for a 1k Sons unit that seems like an obvious open goal for GW at the minute.

What is the point of printing the Intercessors datasheet 5 times? It's a waste of paper which is bad for the environment. It's a waste of time as more things need to be checked and fixed. It creates the possibility of DW having 1W Intercessors while UM get 2W Intercessors which is silly. Similar books should be updated as close to each other as possible to minimize visible design philosophy changes throughout time.

Let's say GW wants to reduce the durability of vehicles ASAP once 10th launches because it turns out the new vehicle stats are unfun. Leaving Necrons for last would work, yeah they'd keep their very durable vehicles for longer than most but you cannot really compare Necron Ghost Arks and SM Rhinos because they're different civilisations, but comparing CSM and SM or worse DW and UM there should not be a difference in durability between their Rhinos as it would feel gamey and wrong.

I am in favour of consolidation of CSM books back together because of one simple issue:

RN, no CSM force is served decently enough. It is easily arguable that the only moderatly successfull codex CSM got in regards to represent what csm should be is one that is nowadays decades old. The cutting out of mono-god legions has actually been immensly contraproductive aswell.

I am talking of course about the 4th edition codex.

Ok now that i got the silly urge out of my system:

I will sound like a broken record but part of the reason R&H in 6 and 7th were one of the core favourites of CSM or Chaos players, had not to do with the ammount of unique entries. Contrary it was a list with less entries than guard. But rather how those entries were designed and how they interacted with the army rules.

A militia platoon squad could represent:
Dark mech cheap servitors, cultists, paramilitary forces, traitor guardsmen, PDF in any cult variation or unaligned.
Mutants: were separated out.
Grenadiers, was a melee and depending upon demagogue devotion, shooty veteran unit, capable of representing evil skitarii, fallen tempestus scions, Cult elite, etc.

Only the really unique, like plague zombies, bloatdrones, bloodslaughterers, etc. were separated out, from generic options that you could run according to your representation needs.

There is nothing that couldn't be done just aswell with CSM. F.e. Apothecaries should be something generically available to most legions and even fallen chapters. The specialisation and access should come from the choice of what force you run.
Preferentially you could make a multi tiered army system:
Chose alignment: Khorne, yadda yada.
Chose precursor: Legion, order, (pirates and rabble).

After that you unlock specific things alignements unlock free marks f.e. but disallow others, unaligned pays for them. If you got Mark x, units get acess to y. f.e. Khorne aligned, legion leftovers, get havocs that have access to plasmacannons and autocannons and a rule representing their trigger happines. (yes, khornes teeth havocs). Combat drugs for apothecaries. Unlocks Khorne berzerkers as troops, can exchange chainswords for chainaxes, etc.

Slaanesh? Noise weapon access. Slaansh psy. etc. etc. You get what i mean.

Legion vs order: Access to things that are found in HH, like Shrappnell boltguns, phosphex, landspeeders, volkite, special terminator upgrades. Order? more modern stuff, hell even potentially primaris.

You'd minimise the ammount of paper, maximise the way one can build forces. If you want to avoid Nurgle bikers with an FNP that hard you can limit forces to being more stringent with how they in 30k operated.

The less crossover between HH and 40k the better IMO. If 40k CSM could just be a HH army then they're no longer CSM because the whole point of the Crusade/Heresy Legions was that they were superior to their later counterparts.
I have the same opinion regarding the Relic Terminators and Contemptor in the Marine Codex because rather than these having these supposedly ancient and rare technologies, every Chapter and their mums can use them.

Technological devolution as a theme is long since dead gert, for Space marines in general.

Atleast hh weaponry and units don't look like primaris. .. exception to the kratos which is also extremely overloaded.

Also where if not csm legions should you find contemptors and relic terminators? Just because sm get far too liberal access to these things doesn't mean that csm shouldn't have them.

 vict0988 wrote:
What is the point of printing the Intercessors datasheet 5 times? It's a waste of paper which is bad for the environment. It's a waste of time as more things need to be checked and fixed. It creates the possibility of DW having 1W Intercessors while UM get 2W Intercessors which is silly. Similar books should be updated as close to each other as possible to minimize visible design philosophy changes throughout time.

Counter-point - people only needing to buy one book instead of two to play one of the Big Chapters is better for the environment.

As to your other point in this - good information management should be able to handle such a thing. There should be a database/spreadsheet somewhere which holds the details of which books certain datasheets are printed in, which can be referred to if you need to amend all instances of a certain thing. Without such a document, an amend to the Rhino or Land Raider will be an even bigger PITA than updating Intercessors or Assault Marines.

In theory, the other upside should be that these Chapters could see different prices for units if deemed appropriate - I don't know that we'll see that, but it is easier if they're their own books than if they're smushed into one plus supplements.

It's why I'm interested into the variant Chapter Faction Focus this week - let's see what they're proposing to do, and hope that they do things properly.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Technological devolution as a theme is long since dead gert, for Space marines in general.

Atleast hh weaponry and units don't look like primaris. .. exception to the kratos which is also extremely overloaded.

Also where if not csm legions should you find contemptors and relic terminators? Just because sm get far too liberal access to these things doesn't mean that csm shouldn't have them.

There's a difference between Primaris stuff and just straight-up getting access to equipment that was difficult to produce even during the Crusade.
Cawl can make all of this new stuff because he made them. He doesn't have to worry about other patterns of the equipment being less resource intensive or more advanced than he can manage because there are no other patterns.
The Mechanicus struggles to make Indomitus pattern armour and Castra Ferrum Dreadnoughts, it literally can't produce Contemptors or Cataphractii at levels anywhere near enough that they should be distinct options in the Marine Codex.

And as for CSM, they're not exactly sitting on their behinds doing nothing. Every living moment is a fight for them and being cut off from the massive resources of the Imperium means they can't replace losses as readily. In the same way that a First Founding Chapter will have fewer pieces of Heresy-era equipment in their armouries than during their Crusade days, so too will the Legions of the Long War. A Chapter can replace a Deimos pattern Predator with a Mars pattern with relative ease because there will be a Forge World making equipment for them. A Warband doesn't necessarily have even a planet to their name, let alone a Daemon Forge, which is why they turn to Daemonology or raising Chaos Cults to bolster their forces. The Forges they do have access to also aren't ruled by particularly sane individuals in the way Imperial Forge Worlds are. The Dark Mechanicum could produce a Predator for a Warband or they could build a murder robot inhabited by a Daemon because that is more interesting to them.
I also didn't say these armies shouldn't have access, they just shouldn't be able to essentially run a Crusade Legion army.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If there was a unit of havocs in Codex: DG for 9th edition with access to nothing but the special weapons of old, how would it be different from a unit of plague marines?

Greater concentration of firepower. Naturally a Havoc unit would have access to more special weapons than the standard Plague Marine squad (putting aside the current ghastly PM dataslate). Thinking back to when there were such a thing as "Plague Marine Havocs", they could get 4 special weapon, whereas regular Plague Marine squads could get 2. I'd argue that they should've been allowed heavy bolters as well (and there's two pieces of art in the 3.5 'Dex that show this), but that's a different conversation.

Barring the whole topic of how the plague marine sprue dictates their rules (I think we both have spent more than enough time on making our opinions about that clear), it seems to me that plague marines and DG havocs of old can both be represented by one unit as PM can have 4 ranged special weapon in a unit of 5 and 7 in a unit of 10. I think bringing back havocs would add very little little to the army, I'd prefer a different type of unit instead, like those DG mortar crews from HH.

 Gert wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Technological devolution as a theme is long since dead gert, for Space marines in general.

Atleast hh weaponry and units don't look like primaris. .. exception to the kratos which is also extremely overloaded.

Also where if not csm legions should you find contemptors and relic terminators? Just because sm get far too liberal access to these things doesn't mean that csm shouldn't have them.

There's a difference between Primaris stuff and just straight-up getting access to equipment that was difficult to produce even during the Crusade.
Cawl can make all of this new stuff because he made them. He doesn't have to worry about other patterns of the equipment being less resource intensive or more advanced than he can manage because there are no other patterns.
The Mechanicus struggles to make Indomitus pattern armour and Castra Ferrum Dreadnoughts, it literally can't produce Contemptors or Cataphractii at levels anywhere near enough that they should be distinct options in the Marine Codex.

And as for CSM, they're not exactly sitting on their behinds doing nothing. Every living moment is a fight for them and being cut off from the massive resources of the Imperium means they can't replace losses as readily. In the same way that a First Founding Chapter will have fewer pieces of Heresy-era equipment in their armouries than during their Crusade days, so too will the Legions of the Long War. A Chapter can replace a Deimos pattern Predator with a Mars pattern with relative ease because there will be a Forge World making equipment for them. A Warband doesn't necessarily have even a planet to their name, let alone a Daemon Forge, which is why they turn to Daemonology or raising Chaos Cults to bolster their forces. The Forges they do have access to also aren't ruled by particularly sane individuals in the way Imperial Forge Worlds are. The Dark Mechanicum could produce a Predator for a Warband or they could build a murder robot inhabited by a Daemon because that is more interesting to them.
I also didn't say these armies shouldn't have access, they just shouldn't be able to essentially run a Crusade Legion army.

Except that might be true for small warbands. But the legions that didn't shatter or successfull warbands like the Red Corsairs, actually have cut themselves vast petty empires out, that are now expanding evermore, indeed have stolen like with the spartan stc plans, etc. So no, that argument may work for the "brass beasts" or the Purge but not for IW. And as with all leaders of chaos, just as much as the insane rule, the sane may very well are the most successfull as seen with Huron.
Further the ammount of standardisation visible within daemonengines is palpable, and so is dedicated specialisation like we could see with the XANA lineage of helltalons and Hellblades. So no, once again there should be the whole picture not 4th edition nonsensery csm.

Else CSM as a credible threat wouldn't even work anymore and would need to be replaced completly in favour of singular CSM leading cultist armies and paramilitaries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


Barring the whole topic of how the plague marine sprue dictates their rules (I think we both have spent more than enough time on making our opinions about that clear), it seems to me that plague marines and DG havocs of old can both be represented by one unit as PM can have 4 ranged special weapon in a unit of 5 and 7 in a unit of 10. I think bringing back havocs would add very little little to the army, I'd prefer a different type of unit instead, like those DG mortar crews from HH.

It'd be nice if the chemical and biological warfare aspect of DG would've gotten amped up more and for that artillery would play a massive role. Phosphex etc. Basically the C instead of just B type of warfare.

 Dysartes wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Ah, I guess I wasn't being very clear, I'll rephrase it.

If there was a unit of havocs in Codex: DG for 9th edition with access to nothing but the special weapons of old, how would it be different from a unit of plague marines?

If we assume that, for whatever reason, GW have decreed that 40k lore states that the DG don't have heavy weapon infantry, there's still a spot for an infantry unit with greater firepower than the current Plague Marine datasheet. Havocs give us the structure for such a unit - everyone bar the Champion has to take a special (or ranged plague?) weapon, with the Champion getting combi-weapon access.

In an edition where we're seeing the return of fire points to transports, and disembarking after transport movement (I think that's been confirmed as a thing), that gives the DG an opportunity to make a mess of a target by surgical application of firepower (or plaguepower). It also gives you a unit that has a different flavour to the CSM equivalent, which I know I would find somewhat interesting.

I actually like the idea that DG don't do man portable heavies. The 30/40K difference you can chalk up to Morty asserting himself more now that he's on his own or something. But its additional flavor. Of course, that means they should get more/better specials. "Tac Squads" should get at least two specials etc. Some sort of Firestrike Turret niche is something else that should probably get looked into.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Except that might be true for small warbands. But the legions that didn't shatter or successfull warbands like the Red Corsairs, actually have cut themselves vast petty empires out, that are now expanding evermore, indeed have stolen like with the spartan stc plans, etc. So no, that argument may work for the "brass beasts" or the Purge but not for IW. And as with all leaders of chaos, just as much as the insane rule, the sane may very well are the most successfull as seen with Huron.
Further the ammount of standardisation visible within daemonengines is palpable, and so is dedicated specialisation like we could see with the XANA lineage of helltalons and Hellblades. So no, once again there should be the whole picture not 4th edition nonsensery csm.

Else CSM as a credible threat wouldn't even work anymore and would need to be replaced completly in favour of singular CSM leading cultist armies and paramilitaries.

Right, and those Legions went from being supplied by masses of foundries and Forge Worlds to scratching what they could in the Eye and that was before the Legion Wars decimated them even further and the Long War started. They should not have access to massive amounts of Heresy-era equipment because nobody is producing it anymore, not even the Hell Forges of Xana II.
There are Warbands that will have a core of Heresy veterans in their ranks with the vehicles to accompany them but they should be in exactly the same boat as Chapters who are from earlier Foundings. They might have a Contemptor or two and Spartan if they are lucky but most of their equipment should be newer patterns taken from raids or it should be Daemon Engines.
Even the more put-together Legions like the Iron Warriors or Word Bearers are not "unified" enough to maintain massive stores of Heresy-era equipment. Perturabo starts wars on Mendregard all the time to ensure only the strongest Warbands remain and the Word Bearers have entire wars over the shade of red that should be used to paint their armour. Ten thousand years of constant warfare in Realspace and the Warp means that even if there is a Warband with a particularly strong armoury of Heresy-era equipment just after the Legion Wars, it isn't going to stay that way forever and replacements or alternatives have to be found. Hell, there's a chance that this five thousand-year-old tank will one day just start eating its crew because it's been possessed by a Daemon and has to be destroyed.
This idea that because some CSM fought in the Heresy that the Codex should include things like Contemptors and Spartans is just ludicrous.

 Gert wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Except that might be true for small warbands. But the legions that didn't shatter or successfull warbands like the Red Corsairs, actually have cut themselves vast petty empires out, that are now expanding evermore, indeed have stolen like with the spartan stc plans, etc. So no, that argument may work for the "brass beasts" or the Purge but not for IW. And as with all leaders of chaos, just as much as the insane rule, the sane may very well are the most successfull as seen with Huron.
Further the ammount of standardisation visible within daemonengines is palpable, and so is dedicated specialisation like we could see with the XANA lineage of helltalons and Hellblades. So no, once again there should be the whole picture not 4th edition nonsensery csm.

Else CSM as a credible threat wouldn't even work anymore and would need to be replaced completly in favour of singular CSM leading cultist armies and paramilitaries.

Right, and those Legions went from being supplied by masses of foundries and Forge Worlds to scratching what they could in the Eye and that was before the Legion Wars decimated them even further and the Long War started. They should not have access to massive amounts of Heresy-era equipment because nobody is producing it anymore, not even the Hell Forges of Xana II.
There are Warbands that will have a core of Heresy veterans in their ranks with the vehicles to accompany them but they should be in exactly the same boat as Chapters who are from earlier Foundings. They might have a Contemptor or two and Spartan if they are lucky but most of their equipment should be newer patterns taken from raids or it should be Daemon Engines.
Even the more put-together Legions like the Iron Warriors or Word Bearers are not "unified" enough to maintain massive stores of Heresy-era equipment. Perturabo starts wars on Mendregard all the time to ensure only the strongest Warbands remain and the Word Bearers have entire wars over the shade of red that should be used to paint their armour. Ten thousand years of constant warfare in Realspace and the Warp means that even if there is a Warband with a particularly strong armoury of Heresy-era equipment just after the Legion Wars, it isn't going to stay that way forever and replacements or alternatives have to be found. Hell, there's a chance that this five thousand-year-old tank will one day just start eating its crew because it's been possessed by a Daemon and has to be destroyed.
This idea that because some CSM fought in the Heresy that the Codex should include things like Contemptors and Spartans is just ludicrous.

Or like their First Founding counterparts (who would have had armories filled with this stuff before losing much of it to their successors during the Second Founding) - they may still have some but they are generally too precious to risk willy nilly.

 Gert wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Except that might be true for small warbands. But the legions that didn't shatter or successfull warbands like the Red Corsairs, actually have cut themselves vast petty empires out, that are now expanding evermore, indeed have stolen like with the spartan stc plans, etc. So no, that argument may work for the "brass beasts" or the Purge but not for IW. And as with all leaders of chaos, just as much as the insane rule, the sane may very well are the most successfull as seen with Huron.
Further the ammount of standardisation visible within daemonengines is palpable, and so is dedicated specialisation like we could see with the XANA lineage of helltalons and Hellblades. So no, once again there should be the whole picture not 4th edition nonsensery csm.

Else CSM as a credible threat wouldn't even work anymore and would need to be replaced completly in favour of singular CSM leading cultist armies and paramilitaries.

Right, and those Legions went from being supplied by masses of foundries and Forge Worlds to scratching what they could in the Eye and that was before the Legion Wars decimated them even further and the Long War started. They should not have access to massive amounts of Heresy-era equipment because nobody is producing it anymore, not even the Hell Forges of Xana II.
There are Warbands that will have a core of Heresy veterans in their ranks with the vehicles to accompany them but they should be in exactly the same boat as Chapters who are from earlier Foundings. They might have a Contemptor or two and Spartan if they are lucky but most of their equipment should be newer patterns taken from raids or it should be Daemon Engines.
Even the more put-together Legions like the Iron Warriors or Word Bearers are not "unified" enough to maintain massive stores of Heresy-era equipment. Perturabo starts wars on Mendregard all the time to ensure only the strongest Warbands remain and the Word Bearers have entire wars over the shade of red that should be used to paint their armour. Ten thousand years of constant warfare in Realspace and the Warp means that even if there is a Warband with a particularly strong armoury of Heresy-era equipment just after the Legion Wars, it isn't going to stay that way forever and replacements or alternatives have to be found. Hell, there's a chance that this five thousand-year-old tank will one day just start eating its crew because it's been possessed by a Daemon and has to be destroyed.
This idea that because some CSM fought in the Heresy that the Codex should include things like Contemptors and Spartans is just ludicrous.

Just yet more proof they need to bring back 0-1 options, and heck, they could even restrict them to 1st/2nd founding chapters, and the most cohesive and powerful warbands.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:


Just yet more proof they need to bring back 0-1 options, and heck, they could even restrict them to 1st/2nd founding chapters, and the most cohesive and powerful warbands.

I'm more OK with 0-1 than First/Second/etc Foundings/Legions -

Someone buys super cool big centerpiece Forgeworld (or Not) model, builds their own little warband around it -> The Astral Bazooka's warband stole a Whatchamacallit from their parent chapter and then absconded with the relic to carve their own destiny out among the stars as they're sick of defending a Mankind that doesn't deserve it yadda yadda.

The whole "The equipment is so rare that we can't put it on the battlefield" excuse is beyond pathetic. If that were the case then you'd never see Chapter Masters, let alone Patriarchs, on the field of anything less than a do or die battle.

This is a game and depending on whether you want to look at your particular battle as a skirmish or just a snap shot of what's going on over a planet as a whole you should be able to play with your toys. If the Imperial side has access to a pre-heresy weapon then chaos should be able to field the same thing with the same point cost. I'll say that weapon options could easily be different between the 2 sides due to later developements (so daemonic things for chaos and newly developed sciences for SM). But there is no reason that SM should have the ability to play Spartans or grav vehicles while a Chaos player doesn't.

Nobody has said that Imperial Chapters should get greater access to Heresy-era wargear than Chaos Warbands.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The whole "The equipment is so rare that we can't put it on the battlefield" excuse is beyond pathetic. If that were the case then you'd never see Chapter Masters, let alone Patriarchs, on the field of anything less than a do or die battle.

Sure you would. They make new Chapter Masters pretty easy.

 Gert wrote:

Right, and those Legions went from being supplied by masses of foundries and Forge Worlds to scratching what they could in the Eye and that was before the Legion Wars decimated them even further and the Long War started. They should not have access to massive amounts of Heresy-era equipment because nobody is producing it anymore, not even the Hell Forges of Xana II.

Pray tell what the reaper autocannon is? Or how about we go to the source: "Imperial Armour Volume Thirteen - Warmachines of the Lost and the damned" P. 16: The tools of damnation:

So right after raiding as a source we get a nice little snippet about the Dark Mechanicum
...]From their blasphemous foundries pour forth all manner of constructs, from recognisable patterns of vehicles such as the Rhino and Land Raider to terryfing engines of destruction entirely unknown to the machine canon of the cult Mechanicus[...

Then it goes on how those "deals" are maintained, mostly: Slaves + material = supply. Or security duty. Etc. Etc. et all. That is the LITERAL introduction of the book on these warmachines.

Or P 17: Describing that some warbands manage to be entirely mechanised. Or even more ironic the preference and prevalence of Kharybdis, thunderhawks, stormeagles etc.
Do you seriously think that is an "underequipped force" without access to such tools?

P26: Has a nice bit about why the predator is so liked, because, surprise, the predator and even the rare varieties can be produced plentyfully by the dark mechanicum aswell as being potential spoils from other marines.

Etc.

There are Warbands that will have a core of Heresy veterans in their ranks with the vehicles to accompany them but they should be in exactly the same boat as Chapters who are from earlier Foundings. They might have a Contemptor or two and Spartan if they are lucky but most of their equipment should be newer patterns taken from raids or it should be Daemon Engines.
Even the more put-together Legions like the Iron Warriors or Word Bearers are not "unified" enough to maintain massive stores of Heresy-era equipment.

And yet somehow this quote is also found in above book in regards to the Storm Eagle assault Gunship:
]While the storm eagle dropped out of use amongst the Adeptus Astrtes when the two Forge Worlds that produced it in the greatest numbers fell during the Horus Heresy, many Chaos Space Marine warbands retained their vessels and, so it appears, the secretes of maintaining them. P71.

Then The thunderhawk is flat out producable by many Dark mech forge worlds, P. 78. Seems to be a big seller for the dark mech.

Perturabo starts wars on Mendregard all the time to ensure only the strongest Warbands remain and the Word Bearers have entire wars over the shade of red that should be used to paint their armour. Ten thousand years of constant warfare in Realspace and the Warp means that even if there is a Warband with a particularly strong armoury of Heresy-era equipment just after the Legion Wars, it isn't going to stay that way forever and replacements or alternatives have to be found. Hell, there's a chance that this five thousand-year-old tank will one day just start eating its crew because it's been possessed by a Daemon and has to be destroyed.
This idea that because some CSM fought in the Heresy that the Codex should include things like Contemptors and Spartans is just ludicrous.

And you think that is something you do when your logistics are supposedly as bad?

I am not against limits, like 0-1 or the old machina malefica which required after the first vehicle with this rule a warpsmith / abby / lord to take another one, but let's not pretend that the supply issue is as dire as you claim, it isn't else once again, chaos marines wouldn't be a threat at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Nobody has said that Imperial Chapters should get greater access to Heresy-era wargear than Chaos Warbands.

Then as it stands, why do Marines get better access to it?

Why not then go with my proposal?

 Gert wrote:
Nobody has said that Imperial Chapters should get greater access to Heresy-era wargear than Chaos Warbands.

Well, gw has.

Relic Terminators? The Kratos? Sicaran Omega? CP tax free Contemptors? Those are just for loyalists.

 Dysartes wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:EDIT: And the same applies to loyalists too. DW and GK are a bit more complicated, but SW and BA could probably have their meaningful rules options put on a single page each, and then include the handful of datasheets for units that absolutely, positively need to be unique units instead of just being rolled into generic datasheets.

Please get your mind out of the gutter regarding this, Wyldhunt - I'm hoping we'll see that Codex: Dark Angels for 10th sees a return to a proper book for BA/BT/DA/DW/SW, with all their units in the book - and units like the Wolf Priest (which should be a Chaplain/Apothecary hybrid, not just a Chaplain in a Wolf Skull) getting their true role restored.

Wolf Priests are definitely a canon example that would be awkward to roll into generic datasheets. They're fully the SW chaplains and the SW apothecaries, so forcing them to choose between the two is a bit awkward. Then again, they don't seem to carry nartheciums, so it's probably fair to say that their ability to heal on the battlefield is somewhat reduced compared to those with full apothecary equipment. Alternatively, you could just have a (detachment?) rule that says SW chaplains have the option to spend X points to grant their squad FNP.

While cool models are cool, GW does have to allocate resources to decide what models get sculpted/made/released within a given timeframe. Using those resources to pump out a dozen slightly different apothecaries is not how I personally would want them to use those resources. If you really want faction X's version of a unit to be ever so slightly different from faction Y's, you can probably use the same model, embrace conversions, and toss in an optional rule that costs X points and tweaks how the unit performs.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I could not possibly care less about playing a version of Thousand Sons from before the Rubric of Ahriman.

That isn't the point. The point is: GW is perfectly capable of writing rules that don't incorporate the aggravating "NMNR" paradigm into them. No reason that 1ksons can't have psychic dreadnoughts, for example.

Psychic dreadnought (or Sorcerer Hellbrute, at least) is a good shout for a 1k Sons unit that seems like an obvious open goal for GW at the minute.

Psychic dreads are a great example of a unit that should just be a generic option rather than needing unique data slates. There's no reason for them to be a BA-specific thing. Pretty sure the SIlver Skulls canonically have them? I think we all agree that the Thousand Sons ought to have them, but also what's to stop DG from having a dreadnaught with a psychic guy's head floating around in the puss-drenched coffin? Or EC? Or AL? You could easily just add an upgrade to make a dread psychic and let him choose from a list of powers that cost X points.

Any player who thinks it would make a cool addition to his army would have access to the option. Players who don't want psychic dreads can take other options instead. And you do it in a single datasheet instead of making people buy faction-specific splats to get their bespoke dread/brute rules.

Firstly, we were talking about things like Contemptors, Volkite weaponry, and Spartans, not two Autocannons strapped together which is exactly what a Reaper is. Any mook with a welder can make a Reaper.
Secondly, that quote doesn't prove your point because it is extremely vague. It mentions Rhinos and Land Raiders, which while all patterns are technically Heresy patterns, it doesn't explicitly mean the Deimos stuff, and the majority of example images show Mars pattern vehicles for all the Rhino chassis tanks in the book. In fact, IA13 makes references constantly to the Dark Mechanicum having to make unusual or esoteric modifications to these vehicles to keep them running because they can't reproduce the originals.


You keep ignoring the other portions of those entries where it makes clear that vehicles like Infernal Relic Predators are extremely rare, with entire wars being fought over them. For example, the Stormeagle entry you've quoted has this as the very next line:

Though rarely deployed in great numbers

Seems to me that CSM don't actually have huge stores of Stormeagles to call upon if they're rarely deployed en-masse unlike the gunships of the Imperial Chapters.
But you're also forgetting the Infernal Relic rule. This rule prevented armies from taking more than one Infernal Relic vehicle in a list unless the player also took Abaddon, a Warpsmith, or a Malefic Sorcerer, emphasising that these vehicles were too rare and important to be present without a "technomancer" present to oversee their deployment. A similar rule was in place for Imperial Marines BTW.


Yeah, the Thunderhawk was originally a cheaper stop-gap because Stormbirds were extremely difficult to construct and maintain. It's the Mars pattern Rhino of the Astartes aircraft roster.


You're implying that beings ascended beyond the concerns of mortal life care about that. Perturabo wanted efficiency over all else and if an inefficient Warband was operating a relic vehicle, then the loss of that vehicle was an acceptable one if greater weakness had been purged. And the Word Bearers are hardly the most logical or sane lot, again referring to the fact they have entire wars over the shade of red to be used for armour paint.


Not having access to masses of Heresy-era equipment doesn't make CSM not a threat. Cults, Daemons, esoteric technology, sorcery, and boons granted by the Gods, all of these make the CSM dangerous in ways that they weren't during the Heresy. There was a reason Horus wanted to make sure that the Loyalist Legions adhered to the Edict of Nikea so as to prevent any real hope of those Legions being able to combat the Warmaster's allies from beyond the veil.

Then as it stands, why do Marines get better access to it?

Why not then go with my proposal?

Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

No. And the different space marine chapters didn't need their own books either.

You get one page of rules and 2 pages of fluff like everybody else.

 Gert wrote:
Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

But is that really "the point" of CSM, or just one of many, and the one that you prefer? Let's see what someone who had considerable input into what CSM were designed to be after the ancient days of RT:

To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterized as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat that had refused to lie down and become a part of history. This is why the Gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the Gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building, and vindication or arcane study that gives them purpose

Andy Chambers, from the Designer's Note to Codex Chaos: 2nd edition, page 112

And also from that same Designer's Note:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they'd been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel, that contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

So, "Old Warriors, fighting an Old War, with old equipment" was one of the original "points" of CSM, at least according to one of their most important designers. Of course, there are many other themes covered by the forces of the Chaos Space Marines, and those should be there for those interested to explore and represent in their own armies. But so should that one, for those of us that want to represent it.

Chaos Legions have the potential to be far more divergent than the various flavors of loyalists. If Blood Angels, Space Wolves etc get their own codexs then the God Four definitely should.