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I don't believe the one about the Necron models but I also want to know its context.

 Rihgu wrote:
I went to 30k events at the NOVA Open all week last week and there was

1) 2 players with Chaos War Dogs
2) a player with unconverted Triarch Praetorians
3) a player with AoS Nighthaunt with guns and cog-axes glued on
4) a cults/militia army that was just unconverted 40k Chaos Cultists, not even WYSIWYG (owned and run by one of the Event Organizers!)
5) a thunder warriors army

and probably more, just not that I saw.

and nobody among the 100ish players (across multiple events, no single event had 100 players) seemed to bat any eyes at any of it. If they did, they kept it to themselves. It would be strange to me if people weren't bothered by this but were bothered by Mark 7.

Just because you saw it doesn't mean people weren't bothered by it. At a big event like this though you kinda expect (and are also basically forced to accept) that these kinds of things will happen and you will have to grin and bear it. Its up to the organizer to set and maintain the standards, if the organizer is okay with it - you're playing in their swimming pool and have to follow their rules. If you have a personal issue with someone running their Necron army as Iron Hands at the event and the organizer has no issue with it themselves, your options are to drop out of the event or deal with it, the organizer probably isn't going to kick them out because you raise a complaint about it at that point.

 Gert wrote:
I don't believe the one about the Necron models but I also want to know its context.

It was some Mechanicum thing, judging by the rest of the army, but I wasn't able to ask what specifically.

So there's no actual context to it? Could it be that the player was using those because their original models had broken and that was all they had spare?
Context is key and without being rude, there isn't really any in your list.

Also we know that the Silent King was pals with Sanguinius (*quiet sobbing*) and other Necrons were active during the Heresy , so I can imagine narrative reasons for using praetorians as some sort of counts-as.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Also we know that the Silent King was pals with Sanguinius

the. what.

He wasn't, Damocles is making a goof.

I appreciate that nobody else read The Word of the Silent King, but come on now...

'Framed by a cowl of shimmering light and the traceries of his intricate collar, Szarekh - heralded as the last and greatest of the Silent Kings, and undisputed overlord of the necron race - wore a golden mask fashioned into the likeness of our Lord Sanguinius.'

'Perhaps, had he not fallen to illogical and prideful infighting, their Sanguinius-Angel might have steered them towards a more enlightened destiny.
Certainly he would have made a more amenable emperor than a preserved witch-corpse.
If ever there was a human to be mourned, noble Szarekh would say that it was him. That alliance - the first alliance, perhaps? - might have ended the threat of the Devourer before it even surfaced...'

''Mighty Szarekh, last and greatest of the Silent Kings, honours your angel-father and the accord that we wished to strike with him in ages past''


Trazyn also claims Guilliman as an old friend. Them Primarchs were gettin' around back in the day.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
What's wrong with the War Dogs if they're WYSIWYG, for that matter?

Some people seem to think that the Chaos aesthetic didn't develop until after the Heresy, despite many, many sources indicating otherwise.

That severly depends on the time of the HH source in question.

Siege, yeah defininatly you start seeing chaos stars and some trim.

Before that? nope. not really. With the obvious exception being the Word bearers and ironically emperors children which are already on the way and have units that mark that halfway point like kakophoni.

you where also seeing it among the sons of horus, the thing is though that it wasn't exactly a uniform thing, the traitors didn't randomly take a vote and say "so we're doing chaos stars and mutations starting wendsday guys"
it set in slowly, gradually, and by the time the traitors gathered to invade Terra the corruption was near total

Frankly I can't see why anyone would be bothered by it. Maybe annoyed if the ascetic matters that much to you. A predator is a predator and a marine is a marine at the end of the day. By the end of the heresy there were units of MK VII being fielded. You can argue that it should only go on late heresy army but the same should go for most of the MKVI by that logic. Taken to the extreme if scarcity is the breaking factor, everyone should be up in arms about primarchs since there were only 19 running around for the heresy and that number dropped to 18 very quickly.

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
What's wrong with the War Dogs if they're WYSIWYG, for that matter?

Some people seem to think that the Chaos aesthetic didn't develop until after the Heresy, despite many, many sources indicating otherwise.

That severly depends on the time of the HH source in question.

Siege, yeah defininatly you start seeing chaos stars and some trim.

Before that? nope. not really. With the obvious exception being the Word bearers and ironically emperors children which are already on the way and have units that mark that halfway point like kakophoni.

you where also seeing it among the sons of horus, the thing is though that it wasn't exactly a uniform thing, the traitors didn't randomly take a vote and say "so we're doing chaos stars and mutations starting wendsday guys"
it set in slowly, gradually, and by the time the traitors gathered to invade Terra the corruption was near total

Corruption was not near total in the majority of the Legions. The physical corruption came after the Heresy when they took refuge in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom. The Word Bearers had possessed legionnaires but most were destroyed at Istanbul V. The Death Guard started showing signs of Nurgle's rot when they arrived at Terra. The Emperor's Children were experimenting with various augmentations but most of the demonic horns and tentacles came much later. The Kakaphoni were augmentations not demonic corruption. The Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors despised the physical and mental taints of Chaos. The World Eaters showed little sign of corruption other than Angron, they were only mindless berzerkers who gave into the butchers' nails. The Thousand Sons had their flesh and but they would put them down when the change took them over. The Sons of Horus were corrupted but did not show much physical corruption - they struggled with the gods because they did not give themselves fully to any one deity or the pantheon. It was why they struggled to create possessed marines like the Word Bearers.

I am just of the opinion that if you play HH, you should be in the setting. With GW jumping to the Siege of Terra, playing missions during the Scouring wouldn't be too far off to blend both HH and first born marines. The Scouring would be the time Primarchs still walked, Mk7 armor was available, not all Legions had split into chapters, and most traitor Legions were fully corrupted. So first born marines and all armor marks would be available (outside of primaris). It should be enough to keep all parties happy.

The World Eaters showed little sign of corruption other than Angron, they were only mindless berzerkers who gave into the butchers' nails.

The hordes of half-shark/half-men from Saturnine would disagree with that.

the entire siege of terra series made it clear that the corruption was pretty clearly advanced, read the books as they're not describing heresy legions, they're chaos space marines. it's obviously not total (no rubric marines) but yeah if someone played a "late heresy sons of horus" army and used CSM minis as the basis for their troops, yeah it'd be fine.

We are only given a snippet/snapshot of how the legions devolved into pure debased debauchery.


I'm sure by the time of Istvaan(5 or 3) that entire companies were completely lost to their chosen basal instinct.

Further along you go in the Heresy, the % of the specific legion that's traitor is full traitor grows exponentially.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I appreciate that nobody else read The Word of the Silent King, but come on now...

'Framed by a cowl of shimmering light and the traceries of his intricate collar, Szarekh - heralded as the last and greatest of the Silent Kings, and undisputed overlord of the necron race - wore a golden mask fashioned into the likeness of our Lord Sanguinius.'

'Perhaps, had he not fallen to illogical and prideful infighting, their Sanguinius-Angel might have steered them towards a more enlightened destiny.
Certainly he would have made a more amenable emperor than a preserved witch-corpse.
If ever there was a human to be mourned, noble Szarekh would say that it was him. That alliance - the first alliance, perhaps? - might have ended the threat of the Devourer before it even surfaced...'

''Mighty Szarekh, last and greatest of the Silent Kings, honours your angel-father and the accord that we wished to strike with him in ages past''

Did the thought occur to you that the Silent King never met Sanguinius and only knew of him from histories gathered via intelligence? None of that quote says "Oh yeah I met your dad and he was my best friend".

Trazyn also claims Guilliman as an old friend. Them Primarchs were gettin' around back in the day.

Trazyn "You can totally trust me" the Infinite? Ok dude.

boyd wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
What's wrong with the War Dogs if they're WYSIWYG, for that matter?

Some people seem to think that the Chaos aesthetic didn't develop until after the Heresy, despite many, many sources indicating otherwise.

That severly depends on the time of the HH source in question.

Siege, yeah defininatly you start seeing chaos stars and some trim.

Before that? nope. not really. With the obvious exception being the Word bearers and ironically emperors children which are already on the way and have units that mark that halfway point like kakophoni.

you where also seeing it among the sons of horus, the thing is though that it wasn't exactly a uniform thing, the traitors didn't randomly take a vote and say "so we're doing chaos stars and mutations starting wendsday guys"
it set in slowly, gradually, and by the time the traitors gathered to invade Terra the corruption was near total

Corruption was not near total in the majority of the Legions. The physical corruption came after the Heresy when they took refuge in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom. The Word Bearers had possessed legionnaires but most were destroyed at Istanbul V. The Death Guard started showing signs of Nurgle's rot when they arrived at Terra. The Emperor's Children were experimenting with various augmentations but most of the demonic horns and tentacles came much later. The Kakaphoni were augmentations not demonic corruption. The Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors despised the physical and mental taints of Chaos. The World Eaters showed little sign of corruption other than Angron, they were only mindless berzerkers who gave into the butchers' nails. The Thousand Sons had their flesh and but they would put them down when the change took them over. The Sons of Horus were corrupted but did not show much physical corruption - they struggled with the gods because they did not give themselves fully to any one deity or the pantheon. It was why they struggled to create possessed marines like the Word Bearers.

I am just of the opinion that if you play HH, you should be in the setting. With GW jumping to the Siege of Terra, playing missions during the Scouring wouldn't be too far off to blend both HH and first born marines. The Scouring would be the time Primarchs still walked, Mk7 armor was available, not all Legions had split into chapters, and most traitor Legions were fully corrupted. So first born marines and all armor marks would be available (outside of primaris). It should be enough to keep all parties happy.

Have you read the later heresy/siege books? Large numbers of the traitors are fully corrupted, the world.eaters are pretty much all.mindless beserkers, the death guard are fully converted to plague marines before they even reach terra, the emperor's children are fully enthralled to slaanesh and many are mutated and possessed even by the time of path of heaven, which is a good few years before the siege begins. The sons of Horus vary wildly depending on company and individual. But many are mutated, they have the lupercalii which are possessed marines, and many are dedicated to the pantheon (theres even some currupted looking SoH on the cover of one of the books). Even the night lords are showing signs of mutation by the time they assault the first wall.

The iron warriors and alpha legion are the least corrupted, but there are pockets of the iron warriors who have fallen to chaos (Kroeger for.example)

The World Eaters are mindless berserkers because of the Butchers Nails. Nothing to do with Chaos - otherwise you're generally correct.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The World Eaters are mindless berserkers because of the Butchers Nails. Nothing to do with Chaos - otherwise you're generally correct.

eh not really, they basicly hyper accelerated into chaos once Angron went deamon primarch. I've a theory that a deamon primarch's mere presence tends to be corruptive to their genesons

My town has a large 40K community (we get 40+ players at our tourneys) and a small but active Horus Heresy community (we get 12 to 16 players at an event; we've had active leagues and you can get a game if you want). If there was an 30K scene before HH V2 then it was underground and not at the FLGS. Of the current HH players that I play with, at least half are also 40K players. At our events I have seen a few "pure" HH armies, but I have also seen a few armies where it is all 40K models. Several of the armies have a mixture. I have not seen any angst or drama about having 40K models on the board. 40K Landspeeders are quite common to see zipping around. While some prefer to use the HH versions, nobody is checking the pattern on Rhinos, Vindicators and Predators.

I play Ravenwing Black Knights from my 40K army as Outriders in my HH Dark Angels army without any conversions or changes to the paint. Yesterday I tried out Hellblasters as Interemptors (oh the heresy - Primaris! What if children were watching!), although I did paint those ones black and tried to Heresy them up a little with decals. One of our most dedicated HH players has a beautiful Imperial Fists army that does use models from 40K 3rd to 5th Ed in some squads along with the FW models for the specialist squads. I find as long as squads look homogenous it all works out aesthetically to have a mixed army.

I think if we banned 40K models we wouldn't have much a local Horus Heresy community. I have absolutely no issue with someone using their old Tactical Marines as Horus Heresy Tactical Marines. Nor 40K Devastator Marines as Horus Heresy Heavy Support Squads. Having said that, the Heavy Support squads should all be equipped with the same weapon. If someone had an issue with my ersatz Outriders and Interemptors I guess we wouldn't have a game?

I mean thge Mars pattern rhinos etc where in sue during the Heresy so nothing wrong with using them. I've not added rhinos to my army yet, but I'm considering Mars pattern simply to give some visual differances

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My town has a large 40K community (we get 40+ players at our tourneys) and a small but active Horus Heresy community (we get 12 to 16 players at an event; we've had active leagues and you can get a game if you want). If there was an 30K scene before HH V2 then it was underground and not at the FLGS. Of the current HH players that I play with, at least half are also 40K players. At our events I have seen a few "pure" HH armies, but I have also seen a few armies where it is all 40K models. Several of the armies have a mixture. I have not seen any angst or drama about having 40K models on the board. 40K Landspeeders are quite common to see zipping around. While some prefer to use the HH versions, nobody is checking the pattern on Rhinos, Vindicators and Predators.

I play Ravenwing Black Knights from my 40K army as Outriders in my HH Dark Angels army without any conversions or changes to the paint. Yesterday I tried out Hellblasters as Interemptors (oh the heresy - Primaris! What if children were watching!), although I did paint those ones black and tried to Heresy them up a little with decals. One of our most dedicated HH players has a beautiful Imperial Fists army that does use models from 40K 3rd to 5th Ed in some squads along with the FW models for the specialist squads. I find as long as squads look homogenous it all works out aesthetically to have a mixed army.

I think if we banned 40K models we wouldn't have much a local Horus Heresy community. I have absolutely no issue with someone using their old Tactical Marines as Horus Heresy Tactical Marines. Nor 40K Devastator Marines as Horus Heresy Heavy Support Squads. Having said that, the Heavy Support squads should all be equipped with the same weapon. If someone had an issue with my ersatz Outriders and Interemptors I guess we wouldn't have a game?

Cool. I wouldn't play with you, nor would any of the dozen or so local HH players I know, outside of a demo game to help you figure out what actual HH stuff you wanted to buy.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My town has a large 40K community (we get 40+ players at our tourneys) and a small but active Horus Heresy community (we get 12 to 16 players at an event; we've had active leagues and you can get a game if you want). If there was an 30K scene before HH V2 then it was underground and not at the FLGS. Of the current HH players that I play with, at least half are also 40K players. At our events I have seen a few "pure" HH armies, but I have also seen a few armies where it is all 40K models. Several of the armies have a mixture. I have not seen any angst or drama about having 40K models on the board. 40K Landspeeders are quite common to see zipping around. While some prefer to use the HH versions, nobody is checking the pattern on Rhinos, Vindicators and Predators.

I play Ravenwing Black Knights from my 40K army as Outriders in my HH Dark Angels army without any conversions or changes to the paint. Yesterday I tried out Hellblasters as Interemptors (oh the heresy - Primaris! What if children were watching!), although I did paint those ones black and tried to Heresy them up a little with decals. One of our most dedicated HH players has a beautiful Imperial Fists army that does use models from 40K 3rd to 5th Ed in some squads along with the FW models for the specialist squads. I find as long as squads look homogenous it all works out aesthetically to have a mixed army.

I think if we banned 40K models we wouldn't have much a local Horus Heresy community. I have absolutely no issue with someone using their old Tactical Marines as Horus Heresy Tactical Marines. Nor 40K Devastator Marines as Horus Heresy Heavy Support Squads. Having said that, the Heavy Support squads should all be equipped with the same weapon. If someone had an issue with my ersatz Outriders and Interemptors I guess we wouldn't have a game?

I'd absolutely play with you. Let's have fun. As to the opinions of others? Who cares. May they burn.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Just because you saw it doesn't mean people weren't bothered by it.

Did they drop from the event? Did they refuse to play against the people who brought non-canon or proxy armies? They clearly weren't all that bothered by it if they were willing to play the games.

This all just proves my original point: the most passionate 1% of 30k fans who are dedicated enough to regularly participate in online communities aren't representative of the game as a whole. That 1% at least claims to be very committed to historical accuracy and have the highest standards, refusing to play more than a demo game against anyone who doesn't have a historically accurate army and expecting anyone joining the community to meet their accuracy standards. But what we see offline is that when real games are played non-canon and even proxy-heavy armies are common and the majority of players are simply happy to get games at all.

Ive shared with you my experience with my local play group, which is the exact opposite, and that's a group that is decidedly not online - they don't participate in forums, half of them don't even have facebook profiles, and (not that it entirely matters) one of them is long time friends with a number of old-time GW big names (Andy Chambers, Thomas Perinen, Jervis Johnson, Perry twins, John Blanche, Jes Goodwin) from when he worked for GW corporate and still travels to meet up and play oldhammet with them a few times a year.

So, that attitude is decidedly more influential and widespread than the "1% dedicated enough to engage online".

Assuming that all the participants at NOVA were cool with it because they didn't drop is also completely asinine. They paid a lot of money to he there, when life gives you lemons - make lemonade. I wouldnt drop in that situation either and I've attended events where I have played with people I really would rather not have played because the alternative was basically wasting $1000 to do nothing.

I think one can have preferances without being so married to them they refuse to bend.

chaos0xomega wrote:
So, that attitude is decidedly more influential and widespread than the "1% dedicated enough to engage online".

You're describing an outlier group, one strongly influenced by ties to a specific sub-community even if they aren't online all the time. Most people aren't friends with the GW staff who created the game they're playing.

Assuming that all the participants at NOVA were cool with it because they didn't drop is also completely asinine. They paid a lot of money to he there, when life gives you lemons - make lemonade. I wouldnt drop in that situation either and I've attended events where I have played with people I really would rather not have played because the alternative was basically wasting $1000 to do nothing.

NOVA is held in DC, home of enough activities to keep you busy for weeks if you wanted. If the game is so objectionable drop from the event and go have a nice vacation instead. Go on some tours, visit some museums, eat dinner in a nice restaurant every night, etc. If people were staying in the NOVA 30k event it's because they wanted to play 30k against non-canon and proxy armies, not because the had a choice between playing the game or spending the rest of their weekend staring at the wall in their hotel room.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think one can have preferances without being so married to them they refuse to bend.

Not according to ThePaintingOwl over here.

chaos0xomega wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think one can have preferances without being so married to them they refuse to bend.

Not according to ThePaintingOwl over here.

I mean me personally I'd certainly prefer a lovingly painted Horus Heresy army of Horus heresy units etc. but if I run into a guy whose mixed in some old mark VII mini's from his 40k ultramariens army it's not going to upset me too much, aaaand honestly if you plunked down an army made mostly of chaos marines minis and claimed it's a lot heresy army I'd actually be 100% on board with that

For me, I'll do it once or twice if you're just starting out, perhaps even longer if you're committed to playing like fully painted and its just taking you a while to make slow but steady (and visible) progress through your collection.

But if you're just lazy and cheap and looking to do whats convenient for you at the expense of my ability to enjoy the game in the face of the effort I've put into my stuff, then nah. Hard pass. I categorize you in the same gorup that I did the guys who used to use shoeboxes as stand ins for stormravens and red solo cups for drop pods. I refused to play them then, I refuse to play you now.

chaos0xomega wrote:
For me, I'll do it once or twice if you're just starting out, perhaps even longer if you're committed to playing like fully painted and its just taking you a while to make slow but steady (and visible) progress through your collection.

But if you're just lazy and cheap and looking to do whats convenient for you at the expense of my ability to enjoy the game in the face of the effort I've put into my stuff, then nah. Hard pass. I categorize you in the same gorup that I did the guys who used to use shoeboxes as stand ins for stormravens and red solo cups for drop pods. I refused to play them then, I refuse to play you now.

also you have to be a little careful as sometimes a 40k model over a HH model may be an aestetic choice, like using mars pattern land raiders, rhinos and predators may be a specific choice for aestetics rather then "just reusing my 40k stuff"

My army is late heresy Imperial fists and I've been considering what pattern of rhinos I want to use from an aestetics POV