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 BertBert wrote:
Neither of those are Sisters of Battle though.

That's like saying Grey Knights have women because they've shared a codex with the inquisition in the past.

They're current models from the Sisters' Index.
They aren't proper Sororitas, but they are part of the army.

Priests have been part of the Sob army since their very first release. They aren't allies, they are literally part of the composition of the faction.

They are part of the Ecclesiarchy, which in this current iteration of the game is only represented by the Sisters Codex, yes.

 Crimson wrote:

Nonsense. Yes, European middle-ages is one inspiration among many. And indeed one can model their space marine chapter after medieval religious knightly order. Dark Angels are such chapter, and so are Black Templars. But Space Wolves are nor are many other chapters. A big part of appeal of marines is that you can customise them with different flavours, so making them women absolutely should be part of that customisation palette.

Yes, but people pick specific marines for specific customisation. I play the game only since 8th ed, but I have never seen anyone on any forum or Reddit say they started army X, because it had or didn't have female/male among its members. I have seen people pick SW, because they like Vikings or Varges, WS because they are Tatar, multiple people that started knights and knight crusader armies "in space". No one starts Space Sharks with the idea behind them being like 1980s Triad members or modern frontoviks.

The customisation you are talking about is of the type the majority of the players do not want or ask for. It does not add anything to the faction fantasy, but can very well take away from it. Now there is neutral stuff or armies people just don't care about. If someone turns up with his tyranid army and announces that in his army every model from the biggest monster to the smallest drone is in fact male, will get no reaction, besides potentialy a few odd looks.
Things like space marines, SoB or Custodes are not one of those things. SoB being 100% female is litteraly build in to the faction lore and explantion why they exist at all.
In the end it is the wallets that will decide. If financialy GW changes will have small to no negative impact, GW will keep doing them. It is their IP and can do with it what ever they want. Of course there is this small problem that making your core audiance unhappy/unwilling to buy your stuff, can take a nasty turn. But this is a future thing, we would still have to see if it would happen to GW. The same it happened to the comic industry, movies etc.

 BertBert wrote:
Neither of those are Sisters of Battle though.

That's like saying Grey Knights have women because they've shared a codex with the inquisition in the past.

That is almost laughably wrong.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


That is almost laughably wrong.

Indulge me

Karol wrote:
The customisation you are talking about is of the type the majority of the players do not want or ask for.

Just because a handful of people are being very loud does not mean they represent the majority.

 Overread wrote:
Priests have been part of the Sob army since their very first release. They aren't allies, they are literally part of the composition of the faction.

Of the codex. Organisation wise the convents are separate from the local and over all clergy structures. And this isn't even a one specific thing. Planetary church and the Curates of the Flag are separate etities too, and often come to clash in systems where there is a both a strong navy presance and non navy settlments of any sort. Arco flaglants and crusaders are in the SoB codex too, but they are not part of the faction. Same way servitors aren't space marines in a space marine chapter.

Karol wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Priests have been part of the Sob army since their very first release. They aren't allies, they are literally part of the composition of the faction.

Of the codex. Organisation wise the convents are separate from the local and over all clergy structures. And this isn't even a one specific thing. Planetary church and the Curates of the Flag are separate etities too, and often come to clash in systems where there is a both a strong navy presance and non navy settlments of any sort. Arco flaglants and crusaders are in the SoB codex too, but they are not part of the faction. Same way servitors aren't space marines in a space marine chapter.

The difference is Servitors are a tiny part of Marines, usually only taken as accessories to a Techmarine (and currently Legends); while Priests, Crusaders, ArcoFlaggelants, etc. are all reasonable parts of a standard Sisters' army.

 BertBert wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


That is almost laughably wrong.

Indulge me

That's like saying Necrons are Chaos worshippers because they were once part of the Chaos army.

See how silly your comment was?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Karol wrote:
The customisation you are talking about is of the type the majority of the players do not want or ask for.

Just because a handful of people are being very loud does not mean they represent the majority.

So you think the majority of space marine and custodes players want female space marines? And vice versa SoB players are asking for male members of their orders? If that was a fact, I think we would see more talk about that, aside for very specific parts of reddit. Maybe the loud you are hearing is not from a few people, but the voices of the majority of people.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Just because a handful of people are being very loud does not mean they represent the majority.

That is almost signature worthy.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The difference is Servitors are a tiny part of Marines, usually only taken as accessories to a Techmarine (and currently Legends); while Priests, Crusaders, ArcoFlaggelants, etc. are all reasonable parts of a standard Sisters' army.

You are mixing up two things. Current meta army lists and lore. If we went by "what is a space marine" we would find out a mind blowing thing. Space marines are more followers of the Machine Spirit, then the Ad Mecha themselfs. Because the Ad Mecha lists consists of bucket loads of still partialy fleshy infantry, while space marine list are almost exclusivly vehicle. There for the avarge space marine should be a tank. It is even more fun, if go a bit in to the past. In 8th a space marine army had 2 space marines in it (two heros), minimal scouts and consists of a mix of IG models and a castellan.
Orks at one time were also, not fungoid, but rather buggies and air planes.

And as far as the "servitor consists a tiny part of marine..." well you will be happy to know that one of the GK brotherhood modus operandi (sadly impossible to recreate in game) is dropping 200 combat servitors in to the enemy lines just after an orbital barrage, followed by a mass teleport assault a minute later. BT and the Mentors have a ton of servitors, servo skulls flying like a swarm around the marines and bringing them ammo, new weapons, supplying data etc. Now this is of course only in lore, not in game. But I think we are still talking about lore of GW games here.

Karol wrote:

So you think the majority of space marine and custodes players want female space marines?

Frankly, I think the overwhelming majority do not really care one way or another. As long as there are cool new models to buy, and codices are not utter trash, they're fine.

Karol wrote:
Because the Ad Mecha lists consists of bucket loads of still partialy fleshy infantry, while space marine list are almost exclusivly vehicle. There for the avarge space marine should be a tank.

Um, what?

Orks at one time were also, not fungoid, but rather buggies and air planes.

Just because a bunch of cheese monkeys decided that the best way to play Orks was nothing but vehicles and planes does NOT mean that Orks are suddenly actually biologically vehicles.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


Just because a bunch of cheese monkeys decided that the best way to play Orks was nothing but vehicles and planes does NOT mean that Orks are suddenly actually biologically vehicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNjUiDpLvlQ


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 BertBert wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


That is almost laughably wrong.

Indulge me

The Sisters of Battle as a faction are the military arm of the Church. Therefore the direct commanders of the Sisters of Battle are the male Priests, Clergy and all. The direct superiors of the Sisters of Battle are the ruling powers of the Church, which are predominantly male. So yes those male models are 100% as much a part of the Sisters of Battle as the Marine Lieutenants and commanders are Marine models.

Yes there are fewer of the clergy on the front lines, but they are an intrinsic part of the SoB faction, not a separate element of the Imperial structure like the Inquisition.


GW just didn't update those models with the major SoB update, however considering most are leader roles I suspect we'll see more of them sneak out now and then as hero/leader models one-off releases over time. You actually get a good idea of their representation in the Dawn of War 1 game.

 AldarionTelcontar wrote:

Custodes too are a monastic order. You want female Custodes? Introduce a female order dedicated to protecting the Emperor! Perhaps an Order of Sisters of Battle, or a separate one entirely.

I'd argue that it's nice that Custodes are integrated in order to set them apart from the religious underpinnings of the Sisters and Marines, given that the Emperor didn't actually want a religion. The Custodes can reflect that break from faith, while stil being ultra-dutiful to the Emperors/Imperial cause.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Another bangin' post from catbarf. Nice.

As I've been thinking about all this I've come to another realization and just want to post about a shift in the demographic locally that's been really bugging me. And that's that my game shop has gone from blue-collar to white-collar.

When I was showing up to hobby night 10 years ago, we had a security guard or two, an ex boxer, a mailman, a bike repair guy, the shop-keeps, a commission painter, a short-order cook, a nurse, and a smattering of computer engineers along with a number of local students.

These days when I show up to hobby night it's more computer engineers, data analists, marketing strategists, hardware prototypers and other higher-education types. It's been a heck of a shift. There's been more women, and that's nice (none of whom I've seen play, just paint), but the occupational shift has been stark. Incidentally the old crew was more racially diverse, and the new crew is predominently white and asian.

I mostly chalk that up to local demographics shifting about, but I have seen one or two of them show up on nights when cheaper games are being played, Battletech iirc, which makes me think that the aggressive churn of 40k might also be part of it.

Expanding on this?

Who were my friends and I the last time I regularly played? Well, I for one was a shop mook. Minimum wage kind of stuff. Then, after a year of homelessness, I got my lardy arse into a different gear. 15 or so years and not a little luck later? I’m now a professional fraud investigator. Not pulling in megabucks, but on a nicely comfortable wage. So I’m now white collar, when I was blue collar.

It's one thing if you see your blue-collar community all individually grow into a white-collar community via life progression. It's another if they simply vanish because prices, in or out of the hobby, are too high.


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 Overread wrote:

The Sisters of Battle as a faction are the military arm of the Church. Therefore the direct commanders of the Sisters of Battle are the male Priests, Clergy and all. The direct superiors of the Sisters of Battle are the ruling powers of the Church, which are predominantly male.

Is there a source for the clergy being predominently male?

 Overread wrote:

The Sisters of Battle as a faction are the military arm of the Church. Therefore the direct commanders of the Sisters of Battle are the male Priests, Clergy and all. The direct superiors of the Sisters of Battle are the ruling powers of the Church, which are predominantly male. So yes those male models are 100% as much a part of the Sisters of Battle as the Marine Lieutenants and commanders are Marine models.

Again, that is a false equivalence. An Inquisitor requisitioning a space marine chapter doesn't make them part of that chapter. I get that the Sororitas are subservient to the Adeptus Ministrorum, but male priests are expressly not part of the Sisters of Battle, which is the all-female order of warrior nuns.

How many women can you take from the Marines’ Codex?
How many men can you take from the Sisters’ Index?

Couldn’t we just satisfy the male representation in sisters by giving them back
Fraeteris Militia?

The Sisters of Battle as a faction are the military arm of the Church. Therefore the direct commanders of the Sisters of Battle are the male Priests, Clergy and all. The direct superiors of the Sisters of Battle are the ruling powers of the Church, which are predominantly male.

Is there a source for the clergy being predominently male?

Honestly only anecdotal in that most of the models/art/references that I've seen tend to heavily favour males in the positions of power. I'm guessing many women within the Church might get pressed into the SoB themselves (the SoB might also seek them out as well) which might well lead to men rising to the fore more so in the core church. But it could also just be bias in the stories that get told/that I've read.

BertBert wrote:

 Overread wrote:

The Sisters of Battle as a faction are the military arm of the Church. Therefore the direct commanders of the Sisters of Battle are the male Priests, Clergy and all. The direct superiors of the Sisters of Battle are the ruling powers of the Church, which are predominantly male. So yes those male models are 100% as much a part of the Sisters of Battle as the Marine Lieutenants and commanders are Marine models.

Again, that is a false equivalence. An Inquisitor requisitioning a space marine chapter doesn't make them part of that chapter. I get that the Sororitas are subservient to the Adeptus Ministrorum, but male priests are expressly not part of the Sisters of Battle, which is the all-female order of warrior nuns.

I mean aside from them appearing in the SoB codex each time its released; and appearing in stories.

Again they are the direct superiors to the SoB; they tell them where to go; who to shoot; what to do. They are very much part of their Order, they just aren't the women of the Order. The Church and the SoB can't be separated, they are the same entity. The SoB are the warriors of the Church in the setting. This is just a gender variation based on rank/title/position within one larger organisation.

<irrelevant post>

 Crimson wrote:

Karol wrote:

So you think the majority of space marine and custodes players want female space marines?

Frankly, I think the overwhelming majority do not really care one way or another. As long as there are cool new models to buy, and codices are not utter trash, they're fine.

Well if they don't then this means it would be an argument between two minor groups. And I also do agree that if the custodes codex was a good book, the anger directed at it would be much smaller. The fact that GW decided to both make a bad book AND start drasticly changing lore is a bad combo. Plus the fact that custodes, thanks to being a cheaper to buy in to +efficient, being a popular army doesn't help. If GW went wild with votan lore, the reaction would be smaller.

Still I stand on the stand point that the number of people who go "I picked Crimson Fists, because they are so cool, but give me female marines and they would be perfect" is much smaller, then the number of dudes who picked the same army and expected it to be 100% made out of super dudes. Both groups could be a minority, to how much of a degree we can arguee till the end of time, but one of those two groups will be smaller then the other.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How many women can you take from the Marines’ Codex?
How many men can you take from the Sisters’ Index?

Zero in both cases. There are zero female marines and there are zero male SoB.

Give sisters of battle Fraeteris Militia and give Custodes and marines female model. Issue solved.

 BertBert wrote:

Again, that is a false equivalence. An Inquisitor requisitioning a space marine chapter doesn't make them part of that chapter. I get that the Sororitas are subservient to the Adeptus Ministrorum, but male priests are expressly not part of the Sisters of Battle, which is the all-female order of warrior nuns.

This is technically correct, but not in practice. Yes, it is true that in-universe only the power armoured female warriors of Ecclesiarchy are called Adepta Sororitas, the Sisters of Battle. However, Adepta Sororitas army roster for the game of Warhammer contains a lot of units that are not represented by female models. In comparison, Codex Space Marines doesn't contain a single unit not represented by male models.

 Overread wrote:


I mean aside from them appearing in the SoB codex each time its released; and appearing in stories.

Again they are the direct superiors to the SoB; they tell them where to go; who to shoot; what to do. They are very much part of their Order, they just aren't the women of the Order. The Church and the SoB can't be separated, they are the same entity. The SoB are the warriors of the Church in the setting. This is just a gender variation based on rank/title/position within one larger organisation.

Yeah, no. There is a clear delineation between the orders militant and other subsections of the adeptus ministrorum. Just as an example from 9th ed. codex (emphasis mine):

Decree Passive
The honour of leading the Adeptus Sororitas falls to an officer of the Orders Militant, not to the Priests that accompany them.
There is a rule preventing you from taking more priests that sisters characters.

 Crimson wrote:

This is technically correct, but not in practice. Yes, it is true that in-universe only the power armoured female warriors of Ecclesiarchy are called Adepta Sororitas, the Sisters of Battle. However, Adepta Sororitas army roster for the game of Warhammer contains a lot of units that are not represented by female models. In comparison, Codex Space Marines doesn't contain a single unit not represented by male models.

Oh, absolutely. I've been arguing this from an in-universe perspective. Which is why I mentioned that, if you were to argue from the rules perspective, at one point you'd have had female Grey Knights in Codex Witch Hunters. Say the next SM codex introduced chapter serfs with 50:50 male to female representation in its kit. Maybe also proliferate said serfs to other kits holding helmets, weapons, reloading heavy weapons or what have you. Would that lay the femarine discussion to rest? I don't think so.

Yeah, no. There is a clear delineation between the orders militant and other subsections of the adeptus ministrorum. Just as an example from 9th ed. codex (emphasis mine):

Decree Passive
The honour of leading the Adeptus Sororitas falls to an officer of the Orders Militant, not to the Priests that accompany them.
There is a rule preventing you from taking more priests that sisters characters.

That’s redundant since priests lead groups.

 Overread wrote:


Honestly only anecdotal in that most of the models/art/references that I've seen tend to heavily favour males in the positions of power. I'm guessing many women within the Church might get pressed into the SoB themselves (the SoB might also seek them out as well) which might well lead to men rising to the fore more so in the core church. But it could also just be bias in the stories that get told/that I've read.

That is because of multiple things. First is the problem of large spread nepotism in the imperial church. Second is how members of the church are recruited. To have a female high ranking, which do happen in the lore, the person would have to go through a lot of the same schooling a sister would have to go through. Then every branch of the sisterhood would have to pass on the person. So they would have to be deemed unfit to be diplomat/spy, soldier, caretaker/teacher, and "doctor". The person would have to still be above avarge citizent faithful. Such a person without the protection of higher up clergy members could gain what rank? A missionaries job would be too hard, so a priest, but not in a dangerous or important place. Which more or less leaves some basic clerk position open, and males fullfil those roles better. Now with protection a female future clergy member can do what ever her protectors decided her to be. Aside for one, the clergy can not force someone on to the Sisters, as their recruitment is their own thing.

Karol wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How many women can you take from the Marines’ Codex?
How many men can you take from the Sisters’ Index?

Zero in both cases. There are zero female marines and there are zero male SoB.

Please reread the question.

DeathKorp_Rider 813538 11662432 wrote:

That’s redundant since priests lead groups.

But not of sisters. Or at least not automaticly. Even if a cardinal calls out for a war of faith, he still has to ask from the convents. It is the same as inqusitors ridding around in Land Raiders. The Land Raiders are not his or inquisitorial, because the imperial edict makes it impossible to be a thing.
The church has multiple branches which have an autonomy or are outright independent. A planetary cardinal can not order a priest who is part of the Navies Curates of the Flag. Same way he can not order a SoB order to act in specific way. In fact one of the jobs SoB have is to check clergy for signs of impurity.