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So I saw on Warcom when they were talking about the new HH edition that their version of Legends (Legacy units) will be tournament legal, and that got me to thinking if they are slowly backpedaling Legends units now that there has been so much backlash over so many places not allowing them, even though that was never the intent?

So, that being said, if they were kept current with the rules like everything else, would you want all the units that were moved to Legends back in the codices? There are certainly some units that I would like to see back, but it is a lot more units to balance things around as well.

If I played a tournament I'd want to go in with my OG Marines, so yes.

 Tawnis wrote:

So, that being said, if they were kept current with the rules like everything else, would you want all the units that were moved to Legends back in the codices? There are certainly some units that I would like to see back, but it is a lot more units to balance things around as well.

No, but mostly for accessibility reasons. If someone wants to compete, they really shouldn't be expected to own units they'll never be able to buy.

Of course. From a customers standpoint, I want to be able to use all the models ive been able to use in previous editions of the game. Its up to GW to make it work.

Meta will always exist and keep changing no matter what. There will always be OP and underpowered units, let me choose what I want to field

GW should invest into custom machine learning based rules/balance agents, which their rules boffins could use for dialing in their balances better. There is very little excuse

Now, I'm not saying replacing Legends with battleforged units would get me back to playing modern 40K, but it would be a step in the right direction. I feel like a second class citizen even when almost all the models in my upcoming army are from 2022 or newer, and that feels dumb af

The whole no models no rules policy and stripping models from codizes is one of the main reasons we moved to OPR. So yes, put these things back into the Codex. A Death Guard Codex without Cultists and Possessed is not worth its paper.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

So, that being said, if they were kept current with the rules like everything else, would you want all the units that were moved to Legends back in the codices? There are certainly some units that I would like to see back, but it is a lot more units to balance things around as well.

No, but mostly for accessibility reasons. If someone wants to compete, they really shouldn't be expected to own units they'll never be able to buy.

That's a good point, but is that an accessibility issue or a balance issue?

If the only good list to run is x3 of some ancient model they haven't made in 20 years, that would be an issue even if the model was current. With how often they are doing balance passes and points updates, I think if there were a problem like that, it would get fixed reasonably quickly.

Another option (though one I don't see GW ever doing) is relaxing their rules on conversations and third party sculpts for unit they no longer manufacture.

 Tawnis wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

So, that being said, if they were kept current with the rules like everything else, would you want all the units that were moved to Legends back in the codices? There are certainly some units that I would like to see back, but it is a lot more units to balance things around as well.

No, but mostly for accessibility reasons. If someone wants to compete, they really shouldn't be expected to own units they'll never be able to buy.

That's a good point, but is that an accessibility issue or a balance issue?

If the only good list to run is x3 of some ancient model they haven't made in 20 years, that would be an issue even if the model was current. With how often they are doing balance passes and points updates, I think if there were a problem like that, it would get fixed reasonably quickly.

Another option (though one I don't see GW ever doing) is relaxing their rules on conversations and third party sculpts for unit they no longer manufacture.

Models have dramatically better chances of having relevant rules if GW says they can't be used in tournaments than they do if GW says you have to buy them from recasters.

Ultimately it doesn't matter if it's a balance issue if the solution is to make the models undesirable to play in all formats to avoid the issue of making them desirable to play for people without access to them.

Personally, I think GW has a lot of options as is. Legends is cool and should be something people encourage locally. Most things have clearly viable proxies too for tournament play. This feels like a thing "The Internet" sweats over way more than players do.

No.

But, GW should also do more to encourage non-tournament play.

Yes.

 JNAProductions wrote:
No.

But, GW should also do more to encourage non-tournament play.

Honestly, they really do more than most companies. It's just up to local community leaders to make sure its not ignored in catering to their most fervent players.

 Tawnis wrote:
...So, that being said, if they were kept current with the rules like everything else, would you want all the units that were moved to Legends back in the codices?...

Fully matched play legal with accessible and updateable rules, yes. In the codices, no.

It would be very easy to just keep the codex books as they are with only datasheet entries for things that are currently on sale in a faction branded boxset, even with "what's in the box" rules or any other silliness that GW insists on (think of the codex as a catalogue for the current range).

It would be insanely easy to post a supplemental index on warcom for each faction that includes every other datasheet that should exist, covering everything from legend units to alternative datasheets with proper unrestricted wargear loadouts for codex units that shouldn't have restrictions on them.

 LunarSol wrote:

No, but mostly for accessibility reasons. If someone wants to compete, they really shouldn't be expected to own units they'll never be able to buy.

Preventing people from using the models they already own feels like a poor way to fix that.


In an ideal world, GW wouldn't randomly dump models or options between editions, particularly now that they're 10 editions in... Giving people the ability to use those models if they have them is ultimately the best option for accessibility.

 Tawnis wrote:

So, that being said, if they were kept current with the rules like everything else, would you want all the units that were moved to Legends back in the codices? There are certainly some units that I would like to see back, but it is a lot more units to balance things around as well.

Yes, those units should absolutely be in the codex. The only reason for an army that has been through anything up to 10 revisions to still be losing options is to force people to buy new models. And that's a crappy reason to remove options.

 LunarSol wrote:


Personally, I think GW has a lot of options as is. Legends is cool and should be something people encourage locally. Most things have clearly viable proxies too for tournament play. This feels like a thing "The Internet" sweats over way more than players do.

Yeah, I totally agree. The problem is that "The Internet" perception tends to bleed into a lot of things. I've been to local leagues and events where Legends are allowed and no one bats an eyelash, in general most people prefer it. However, I've also been to big narrative events where they were banned because the organizers were worried about balance, that someone would find some forgotten Legends unit that had some busted rule and dumpster people with it. My response was that if someone was going to bring a busted list to a narrative event, they'd do it with or without Legends, but that has y et to convince anyone.