Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, so we're having to go off of a ton of rumors here so everything must be taken with a grain of salt.

Still, I thought I'd slap up some quick statistics to wet the would-be eldar general's appetite and to get people looking at what the future will hold for tactics.

First off, the much-maligned Dire Avenger.  I ran some numbers on pts of Meq kills per Dire Avenger based off of a number of different 'buffs' in the form of rumored Farseer powers, Exarch abilities, etc...

Normal shooting: 2 shots, 4/3 hits, 2/3 wounds, 2/9 dead = 3.33 pts of dead Meq

Rumored Shuriken Storm: 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1/3 dead = 5 pts of dead Meq

'Doomstorm' (Doom psychic power + Shuriken Storm): 3 shots, 2 hits, 3/2 wounds, 1/2 dead = 7.5 pts of dead Meq

'Guidestorm' (Guide + Shuriken Storm): 3 shots, 20/9 hits, 10/9 wounds, 10/27 dead = 5.55 pts of dead Meq

'Uberstorm' (Guide + Doom + Shuriken Storm): 3 shots, 20/9 hits, 15/9 wounds, 15/27 dead = 8.55 pts of dead Meq

Interesting, the biggest gain here is if you manage to Shuriken Storm a Doomed Meq unit - giving each member of the squad a 50/50 shot of taking out a Meq.  Those are damned good stats for a basic trooper armed with standard weaponry.  It seems that Farseers will truly give a <st1:place w:st="on">LOT</st1:place> of power to the list in the form of making units that much better, acting as a nice force multiplier.

Now, Warp Spiders

Normal shooting: 2 shots, 4/3 hits, 10/9 wounds, 10/27 dead = 5.55 pts dead Meq (notice anything?  It's the same as for the 'Guidestorm' listing above)

Shooting w/Guide: 2 shots, 16/9 hits, 40/27 wounds, 40/81 dead = ~7.41 pts dead Meq

I didn't even bother with the Doom scenario as, quite frankly, it would have minimal impact (the squad already wounds on a 2+, so all Doom gives you is the re-roll on the few 1's that would actually come up.  Trust me, the math gets gross and I'm too lazy to go through it.  Be my guest, but I'll guarantee that the results will be an almost imperceptible gain over their regular shooting).

So, we begin to see an interesting phenomenon (re: Doom vs. Guide).  Choosing what to use Doom on (by determining what will be able to fire on the affected unit) vs. using Guide on one of your own squads is dependant on which roll the unit is more likely to fail.  So, Avengers get a bigger boost from Doom because the hit on 3+ but only wound on 4+.  Spiders get the bigger boost from Guide because they hit on 3+, and wound on 2+. 

These are intuitive results, but only when you stop to really think about the game mechanics behind the numbers. 

Now, just for giggles, let's look at what happens when a Striking Scorpion gets into close combat with a Meq that has Doom on it vs no Doom.  It's rumored that Doom affects close combat hits as well as shooting, sooooo....

I'm going with 4 attacks here (1 base, 1 extra CCW, 1 mandiblaster, 1 charging), so YMMV as this is a 'best case scenario' kind of scenario.

Scorpion (no Doom): 2 hits, 1 wound, 1/3 dead = 5 pts of dead Meq

Scorpion (Doom): 2 hits, 3/2 wounds, 1/2 dead = 7.5 pts of dead Meq

Interesting correlation to what's shown above for the Avengers, no?  It's because Avengers hit on 3+ while the Scorpions only hit on a 4+.  Amazing what a single pip can do for one's averages...

Anyway, I think we'll see a major shift in the way that most Eldar lists deal with Meq opponents.  Since they can make their shooting so severe, and this same shooting will be absolutely brutal against any non-power armored foe, I think they'll be more dependence on massing huge numbers of wounds and forcing the Meq player to roll bucket loads of saves rather than simply ignoring their armor (alla the Starcannon horde).  In effect, the power gained through the new 'dex places a higher importance in combined arms and huge numbers of dice being generated.  It's the armies that can take the most advantage of these new mechanics that will end up in the top of the tournament scene because they'll be able to handle all comers through the power of never ending dice bucket.

Comments, critiques, et al?

I too ran the quick numbers of Doom. However, I think one of the key things here will be the range on the Eldar psychic abilities. All of the boosting abilities had stupidly short ranges in 3rd Edition (e.g. 6" range on Fortune). It remains to be seen if this has changed in 4th. The other thing to consider is that there will be a lot of units vying for these boosts - espescially Guide. Therefore, positioning of your Farseer units will be very important, given the constraints of their powers.

It will also be interesting if LOS is required for these kinds of boosting abilities - moreso if the powers are augmented by warlocks (don't remember whether augment is included in the new dex - I believe it is). I am also curious as to whether these kinds of boosts can be cast while engaged in HTH. It would be a fairly simple matter to negate these if all you had to do was engage them. I suspect that Doom will be a shooting style power. I'll have to see what the final wording is.

Ding ding, couldn't have put my reservations better myself (in fact, I didn't even try... ).

Yeah, I think the break point on Doom would be around the 18" mark. Less than that and you're entering a big risk/reward area. Any more than that and it begins to get rediculously good. Time will tell.

One thing I haven't heard anyone mention yet is how this new dice-based approach to Meqs will interact with the "torrent of fire" rule. If you are causing that many wounds then a third of the time you are going to be able to pluck heavy weapons / special weapons / hidden powerweapons from a squad as well as likely inflicting a morale check.

Considering the number of 6-man las/plas squads about it would be entirely possible for armies adopting this approach to cause 6+ torrent of fire tests a turn. Combined with the morale checks this could prove to be somewhat disruptive...

Posted By Laconfir on 08/26/2006 12:46 PM
One thing I haven't heard anyone mention yet is how this new dice-based approach to Meqs will interact with the "torrent of fire" rule. If you are causing that many wounds then a third of the time you are going to be able to pluck heavy weapons / special weapons / hidden powerweapons from a squad as well as likely inflicting a morale check.

Considering the number of 6-man las/plas squads about it would be entirely possible for armies adopting this approach to cause 6+ torrent of fire tests a turn. Combined with the morale checks this could prove to be somewhat disruptive...

Considering that Marines have "effective" Ld10, I find any leadership problems highly unlikely.  You are right about torrent of fire - though it doesn't make up for the generally lacklustre performance of dire-catapults + blade storm.

I submit that UberFalcons will still win the day.

While buckets of dice allowing armor saves may end up being the way to go instead of ignoring armor saves, I'm of the opinion that heavy weapons will still be the way to go about it. Why so I say such things? Well the answer is rather simple... range. When your dire avengers zoom in and open up on their target, they will probably inflict a fair amount of damage. The problem is that the return fire from the other units in the area (and unless your opponent is stupid, there will be other units around) will probably see the exchange not come out in your favor (particularly since you can't shoot next round). On the other hand, a guardian squad with a platform (or 2) can trade shots with a las plas squad all day long at ~36 inches and win every time (at equal points cost or not). Even against a squad with a heavy bolter, the guardians come out ahead due to the fact that marines are twice as expensive as guardians. Combined arms tactics work even better here since you can concentrate fire from several squads on different parts of the board if necessary.

I will say that there are some situations where the mounted dire avenger unit will prove to be more effective than the guardians. One would be against armies that rely on deep strike. So marine drop pods and daemon bomb armies will probably find that as they come down in pieces (or zoom over on bikes) that they get shot to ribbons. It will also be effective against IG armies with a fair amount of foot troops and non-godzilla nids. Other than that, I foresee the star cannon army of death morphing slightly to include scatter lasers.

I am of the opinion that the starcannon going to heavy 2 is going to hurt a lot, especially for BS 3 guardians and falcons. That being said, guardians are so cheap that platforms will still be common in eldar lists.