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Personally I run an 98 point Archon:

Shadowfield, Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, Plasma Grenades

I opted not to take the punisher/tormentor helm simply because the agoniser/splinter pistol achieves just that. I opted not for the combat drugs since I would really only use two options when he's with a retinue.

What's the optimal configuration out there?

Shadowfield, punisher, tormentor helm, animus vitae, plasma grenades, combat drugs.

Just on his own with 12" assault. 6+1d6+12 4tw.

Just kill squad after squad after squad by yourself (S5 after killing a dude, S6 with drugs). Reroll close combat misses and either 12" assault or +1 strength. Whichever.

Pair him with:

Drachite with an agonizer,  combat drugs, splinter pistol, plasma grenades

Longshot has most of it correct. 

The Agonizer/Punisher weapons are pretty much a wash.  Plus, with the Punisher, you get to wound T3 stuff on a 3+.

I never take the Animus, because it doesn't work if you 'kill some dude', it only works if you take prisoners by running people down.  With the preponderance of fearless, synapse, mob-check, Ld 10 rerollable armies out there, I find the Animus to not be worth its points.

Otherwise, Longshots Archon/Dracon is what I run pretty exclusively.

Oh, and I never use a retinue.  Ever. 

I agree with long shot as well

i only use the animus vitae if i have extra points around as a general rule it doesnt work all that well... which sucks there are way to many fearless models in this game

never take a retinue... not going to go with that mindset.. sometimes yes sometimes no.. it just depends

and i hate agonisers.. why in the hell do you want to wound on a 4+ when you can do it for the majority of models with a 3+, plus why in the hell are you attacking vehicles with an archon either? i have seen it happen... take the punisher tormentor helm and give him haywire grenades for gods sake

shadow field combat drugs pun tormentor helm nades ....animus maybe..trophy rack yeah id say so .. anything else is pure personal choice

I disagree with the consensus here. I wrote this up for another forum ahwile back. Pretty sure its accurate. It sums up why I like agonzier more when using combat drugs. Essentially the agoniser is better or equal to the punisher except against T3 and lower. However with an agoniser you can take a hellmask which is brutal against most T3 (which ususally have low leadership).

Archon on the charge (drugs are noted, punisher and blades with helm)

Tyrant (WS5 T6 3+ save)
Punisher (no drugs): 0.55 wounds
Punisher (+1 S): 1.11 wounds
Punisher (+1S, reroll): 1.48 wounds

Blades: 0.93
Blades (reroll): 1.23 wounds
Blades (+1 A, reroll): 1.48

Agoniser: 1.67 wounds
Agoniser (reroll): 2.22 wounds
Agoniser (+1 A, reroll): 2.67

Agoniser is better by far against TMCs.

Greater D other then thrister (WS 6 or greater T6 4+Inv
Punisher: 0.21 wounds
Punisher (+1S): 0.41 wounds
Punisher (+1S, reroll misses): 0.5 wounds

Blades: 1.04 wounds
Blades (+1A): 1.25 wounds
Blades (+1A, reroll misses): 1.88 wounds

Agoniser: 0.63 wounds
Agoniser (+1 A): .75 wounds
Agoniser (+1A, reroll misses): 1.13 wounds

So the blades have the significant edge here. Note however that if you are facing the Bloodthirster, the edge is much less due to his 3+ save.

MEq
Punisher: 1.67
Punisher (reroll misses): 2.22
Punisher (+1S, reroll misses): 2.96

Blades (already show to be inferior previously)

Agoniser: 1.67 wounds
Agoniser (reroll misses): 2.22
Agoniser (+1A, reroll misses): 2.67

So by using two drugs the punisher gets the slight edge. This would hold true for anything T4 (like orks). However, if you go for that 12" charge (likely if on foot) you'll have to use 3 drugs to have the edge (risky). Once toughness goes to 5 (Death Guard, princes, etc) then the agoniser takes the edge again. Also it'd be the same with terminators (less kills of course but same deal).

GEq (T3, 5+ save)
Punisher: 2.22 wounds
Punisher (reroll): 2.96
Punisher (reroll, +1S): 3.70

Blades: 1.85
blades (reroll): 2.47
blades (reroll, +1A): 2.96

Agoniser: 1.67 wounds
Agoniser (reroll misses): 2.22
Agoniser (+1A, reroll misses): 2.67

So here, the punisher has a major edge over the agoniser.

Personally the only reason you want the punisher is if he's riding in a raider. That way, you won't really need the 12" charge as often and you can safely use the reroll and +1S for extra marine kills. Or if you face alot of T3 then maybe that extra kill is worth it but I don't see that as a big deal.

Hope that helps (and my math is correct, i changed it here and there and may have pasted something incorrect).

I think it's important to have the combo of archon/drachite, personally. Drachite for helping out ganking monsters and archon for scything through meqs.

The animus is pretty easy to do against a lot of armies these days, if you kill all engaged models and they get to automatically flee (nullifying ATSKNF's forcing them to stay in combat if they get caught). Ld8 when you're below half is Ld 7. I've seen it pay off a lot. But to each their own.

ok your math may be fine but you leave out some options

Tyrant (WS5 T6 3+ save)
Punisher (no drugs): 0.55 wounds
Punisher (+1 S): 1.11 wounds
Punisher (+1S, reroll): 1.48 wounds

number one

im going in against that tyrant with drugs getting me the strength, the attack and the re roll.. im going to do this every single time.. so your anaylsis of a no drugs archon doesnt work in this case

so my strength 5 archon against a toughness 6 creature.. im going to hit him hopefully 4 out 6 hits i hit on 3+ ws of 7 and all with re rolls it more like 5 or 6 at least thats what happens for me

strength 5 toughness 6 5's or better? with 4 die i should get at least 2  power weapon require invo saves ok no big deal he aint dead yet but im rolling against a 2+ invo on my turn so either i make it or im dead end of story

now against anything toughness 5 or lower i need 4's to 3's your agoniser still neesds 4's no matter what.. the overall odds are more in my favor but not how you present it

 

you have consistently left out the strength bonus from the drugs and didnt factor in its a str5 archon not a str 4... and if i can get the animus vitae bonus can you say str6 archon.... anyone want to dance?

 

im not against all agonisers far from it but i am dead set against wasting them on an archon agonisers should go to sybarites and the like but not archons

 

there is nothing wrong with running them with anything different it doesnt make sense to me tho

Someone tell my why it's illegal to use skyboard + drugs to get 12" movement + 12" charge.  Precisely where is this forbidden?


I ask this because some people insist that it's illegal, but I haven't understood why. 12" charge with jetbike is forbidden for sure, but skyboard isn't mentioned anywhere.

try reading the dark eldar faq

its under jetbike rules

the speed of the jetbike/hover boad cannot be increased as the rider is under the efect of drugs.. doesnt say hoverboard but same rules apply

does that help?

R

Posted By The Drop Zone on 09/09/2006 12:31 PM

try reading the dark eldar faq

its under jetbike rules

the speed of the jetbike/hover boad cannot be increased as the rider is under the efect of drugs.. doesnt say hoverboard but same rules apply

does that help?

R

No, because the FAQ doesn't mention skyboards at all.  You just decided that the same rules applied because you thought it "made sense."

Feel free to take a skyboard and combat drugs and bring 24" of pain.

EDIT: It's bizarre that you would tell the guy to check the jetbike rules, then paraphrase them, and then tell us that your paraphrase contained an extra word that you decided to add.

im pretty sure i said in plain english it doesnt say hover board and was open about it up front

 

but the same concept applies you CANNOT  increase the speed of a hover board by the rider being on drugs... you cannot find anything that says you can charge a hover board 12" can you? nope thus you cant do it anyways regardless of the fact that you cant go faster because your on drugs.. i sure as hell wish i could but i know it cant be done

 

is that plain enough for you ?

Bad logic...It's like saying

a) Jump infantry move 12"
b) It does not specifically say that assault marines can move 12"

c) Therefore Assault marines can only move 6".

Posted By The Drop Zone on 09/09/2006 6:41 PM

is that plain enough for you ?

The only thing that's plain here is that you're a troll.

Not a troll, just not very smart.

@BigChris, I gotta agree with Whitedragon. Dropzone is not a troll, he is just trying to impose HIS logic on the 40K rules.

@Drop zone, I noticed that you advertize your business in your sig block. Why don't you become a DCM? That way you can financially support Dakka since Dakka is supporting your website by providing visibility? Just a thought.

Darrian

Posted By The Drop Zone on 09/08/2006 7:20 PM

ok your math may be fine but you leave out some options

Tyrant (WS5 T6 3+ save)
Punisher (no drugs): 0.55 wounds
Punisher (+1 S): 1.11 wounds
Punisher (+1S, reroll): 1.48 wounds

number one

im going in against that tyrant with drugs getting me the strength, the attack and the re roll.. im going to do this every single time.. so your anaylsis of a no drugs archon doesnt work in this case

so my strength 5 archon against a toughness 6 creature.. im going to hit him hopefully 4 out 6 hits i hit on 3+ ws of 7 and all with re rolls it more like 5 or 6 at least thats what happens for me

strength 5 toughness 6 5's or better? with 4 die i should get at least 2  power weapon require invo saves ok no big deal he aint dead yet but im rolling against a 2+ invo on my turn so either i make it or im dead end of story

now against anything toughness 5 or lower i need 4's to 3's your agoniser still neesds 4's no matter what.. the overall odds are more in my favor but not how you present it

 

you have consistently left out the strength bonus from the drugs and didnt factor in its a str5 archon not a str 4... and if i can get the animus vitae bonus can you say str6 archon.... anyone want to dance?

 

im not against all agonisers far from it but i am dead set against wasting them on an archon agonisers should go to sybarites and the like but not archons

 

there is nothing wrong with running them with anything different it doesnt make sense to me tho

Probably because your chance of getting a double on three dice is much greater than on two dice, and you risk the self destructing triple?

Wow, the 4th edition FAQ doesn't forbid combining movement from combat drugs and a helion skyboard. That rocks! I'm going to have to ponder that...

IIRC, there was probably a 3rd edition FAQ that said that you couldn't combine the two. I remember it being illegal. (I can't find the relevant Chapter Approved book right now, and I don't want to look harder.) But in any event, the 4th edition FAQ would supercede the 3rd edition one, so it doesn't matter what a 3rd edition one would have said.

6+d6+12" and not having to worry about flying into terrain and not being as big of a target, and not having to pay points, and not getting randomly penalized in tournaments when people whip out the house rules, is better than the skyboard I think.

Unless you can fleet on a skyboard, skip it.

For pure movement purposes disembarking from a raider with drugs is probably best. 12"+2"+d6"+12"= 27-32" charge range isn't too shabby.

Well disembarking from a raider from a WWP is probably best.

Umm no I didn't I used the +1 S in the case where it mattered (the punisher), but I only went with the best 2 drug combos for each weapon because I'd never use or advise using 3 it at all possible and I assumed the 12" charge would be in play most of the time. The same applies to T5. The agoniser doesn't need to use the +1 S to wound on a 4+, so it has an edge over the punisher.

You do make a good point about the animus, then again it isn't going to factor in until later in the game. It's also notabel to point out that you'd be better off kepping the archon away from stuff like TMCs that will snuff him out quickly (even with the shadow field). Wyches with agonisers are probably the way to go here.

In the end the math shows you should make your choice based on how you run your archon, rather then because 'X is better then Y'.

Posted By Darrian13 on 09/10/2006 8:20 AM
@BigChris, I gotta agree with Whitedragon. Dropzone is not a troll, he is just trying to impose HIS logic on the 40K rules.

@Drop zone, I noticed that you advertize your business in your sig block. Why don't you become a DCM? That way you can financially support Dakka since Dakka is supporting your website by providing visibility? Just a thought.

Darrian

to answer your question i have contacted the webmaster about just that and we are working out the details

secondly this was brought up when i first came here in the swap and shop section and it was answered right there.. is that good enough for you?

Posted By skyth on 09/09/2006 7:32 PM
Bad logic...It's like saying

a) Jump infantry move 12"
b) It does not specifically say that assault marines can move 12"

c) Therefore Assault marines can only move 6".

no it says models equipped with a jump pack move as jump infantry

does it not also say that jump infantry may move 12"

 

there fore jump infantry can move 12" it never says anywhere they can assault 12"

unless it specifically say that a model may assault 12" it cannot

 

now i have gone back through the back issues of chapter approved books and the old dark eldar faq's

 

the only thing i can find now id what it says about jet bikes and them not being able to assault 12 due to combat drugs only affecting the rider

i had thought that it mentioned skyboards as well.. i was wrong... i would also ask anyone hosting a tournament before the game started what the ruling would be for that before anything got started..

in reading the description of the helion skyboard it specifically mentions that they are treated as jump packs for movement purposes..

jump infantry may move 12...they also can assault 6" and it has been determined that they assault on foot they dont fly into close combat....i would think that the fact you are riding a hoverboard would prohbit the moveing more than 6" in the assault phase.. now going back to the rule for jetbike that combat drugs cannot make the bike move faster because the rider is high.. i would assume that you cannot also make your hoverboard move faster because your on drugs

 

now there is nothing to contradict that nor anything to prove it either.. it is a agreement required beforehand type of situation

my personal opinion is i would not do it nor would i alow my opponent to either

now i have backed up my opinion with as much rules as there are and as much fact as there is as well.. anyone want to add to this and discuss it and leave the name calling alone ?

Posted By bigchris1313 on 09/09/2006 9:58 PM

Posted By The Drop Zone on 09/09/2006 6:41 PM

is that plain enough for you ?

The only thing that's plain here is that you're a troll.

and this add to the conversation how? all it does is show you dont have anything to add and makes you look foolish