1700 Black Legion; any good?

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**Cilithan**

Hey guys,

In a few weeks GT Benelux will be held. I myself will not be going, but a good friend is. We've been testing his IG against various hard lists and thus far he has done well with his IG tournament list (he beat my Daemonbomb twice - which hasn't been all that common this year ).

Now I want to give him a more shooty list to deal with, and also to see whether I can make a nice shooty all-round list for diversity. Here it is, please ad some ruthless comments if you will.

102: Lord - Stature, Flight, 2 CCW, MoCU

325: 5 Chosen Terminators - 2 Reaper Cannons, 1 Chainfist / 1 Terminator Champion - Kai Gun, Visage / all with MoCU, Icon and Tank Hunters

140: 2 Obliterators

133: 6 CSM - Las, Plas, Tank Hunters, MoCU, Icon

100: 5 CSM - Las, Plas, MoCU, Icon

85: 5 CSM - Missile Launcher, MoCU, Icon

85: 5 CSM - Autocannon, MoCU, Icon

120: 8 Furies

180: 3 Bikers - 1 Meltagun / 1 Aspiring Champion - Powerfist, Visage / all with MoCU, Icon

150: Defiler

130: Predator - Twin Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

1700 points, 45 Models, 11 Scoring Units

What do you guys think? Scary? Any room for improvement?

Thanks for your thoughts, Cilithan out...

**TwistedDarkness**

I'd drop the furies, get more CSM. If you want to be Shooty, go Iron Warriors.
Seems okay other than that.

**Longshot**

Disagree on the furies. A 12"+6" Tieup demon unit is fanfriggin tastic for the points. Any shootie army would be better served with them.

However, I do think you'd do better with Night Lords for this style of list.

**Judge_Fear**

Posted By Cilithan on 09/08/2006 3:32 AM

(he beat my Daemonbomb twice - which hasn't been all that common this year ).

And that's putting it mildly, i think it was the first time in 18 months that i managed to beat ur deamonbomb.

Not sure if i'm equally scared of this list. It looks nasty allright, but it's not as devoted/single minded as ur deamonbomb. There's also a couple of units that cry out to get shot before the rest: obliterators, the bikers and (keeping my own list in mind) the defilers.
U sure you dont just want more marines instead of those bikers oblits?

Looking forward to testing against it tho.

**Cilithan**

Hey Darkness and Longshot,

Thnx for your replies.

@ Darkness: The Furies are the whole reason this isn't an IW list. I feel a lock down unit like the Furies has a lot of merit in a list like this. Also: IW are beardy .

@ Longshot: Night Lords would give this list free Night Vision, but thats it, isn't it? Well free Vision would indeed be good, I will consider this. The list was built as a stereotyp Black Legon list however. It fits their fluff like a glove.

Question: would this list be better? (the change is: 3x LasPlas and IF on the Defilers)

102: Lord - Stature, Flight, 2 CCW, MoCU

325: 5 Chosen Terminators - 2 Reaper Cannons, 1 Chainfist / 1 Terminator Champion - Kai Gun, Strength / all with MoCU, Icon and Tank Hunters

140: 2 Obliterators

115: 6 CSM - Las, Plas, MoCU, Icon

120: 8 Furies

185: 3 Bikers - 1 Meltagun / 1 Aspiring Champion - Powerfist, Visage, Teleport Homer / all with MoCU, Icon

175: Defiler - Indirect

130: Predator - Twin Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

1700 points, 42 Models, 10 Scoring Units

Anyway, thanks for any further thoughts,

Cilithan out...

**Cilithan**

Hey Fear,

More Marines would be good, but first of all I don't have more Marines , and second I'd realy like to try the Obliterators after hearing here on Dakka how good they are. Also they are tougher than you'd think. According to my calculations you'd need 4 IG Lascannons/Meltaguns to kill an Obliterator reliably. (50% hit, 83% wound, 33% of that are saved). Against your plasmaweapons you'd only score one wound so then their survivalrate goes up even more. The good thing is they can move and fire heavy weapons. Anyway: I'd like to try them.

The Bikers? Well they perform very nicely as a flanking unit and with the fist and the Meltagun the are a broad threat. Maybe these are better left for more CSM, but I'll try them first.

Upgrade wise, I'd like Indirect Fire on the Defilers, Possession on the Predator and Infiltrate on the CSM squads. But these are expensive upgrades and they would diminish the amount of guns; a bad idea in a shooty list I think.

As you said, we'll test the first list in a few days before making any changes. At least it will be a different kind of opponent for your tournament list; one that shoots back!

CYa, Cilithan out...

**TwistedDarkness**

**Darrian13**

@Cilithan, You mention that your BL demon-bomb is effective. I have been playing mine for a while with mixed results. Could you post/PM me your demon-bomb list?

Thanks in advance,

Darrian

**Longshot**

Night lords would give you Stealth adept. That's 1 pt for +1 cover saves. So 4+ cover save in woods, 3+ in ruins/buildings. I think you'd do better with 2 units of furies, and stealth adept guys taking a giant cover save boost. My buddy plays a list like that and it's pretty rocking (2 x 10 furies, a few big walking squads with stealth adept, some termies, oblits, daemon prince and some bikers).

**Cilithan**

Hey Darkness, Darrian and Longshot,

Thnx for your replies.

@ Darkness: Yes of course the shot autokills an Obliterator, thats why you'd only need 4 IG lascannon/Melta shots (2 hit, 1.6 Wound, 1.1 Failed Save: autokilled). A Plasmagun at BS 3 for instance would need 8 shots to kill an Obliterator reliably. (4 hits, 3.3 Wounds, 2.2 Failes Saves).

Also, the second list would be better? Maybe you're right, I have heard here before that only Las/Plas is ever worth taking and I shouldn't bother with Missile Launchers and Autocannons. Indirect on the Defiler is also very nasty, possibly.

@ Longshot: Yeah indeed, but paying the points for Stealth is the problem. Where to get the points. I've been thinking about Alpha Legion as well mainly because you can infiltrate for 1 points per Marines and can also take Tankhunters besides that. The Dutch GT has Inflitrate in all missions so that wouldn't be a problem.

@ Darrian:

My Daemonbombs are the following in 1500, 1700 (1850) and 2000. These are rough Templates; I vary them somewhat, but never much.

1500

113 - Lord, Stature, Flight, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

125 - Lieut, Bike, Dark Blade, Melta, MoCU, Pers Icon

110 - 5 CSM, Missile Launcher, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

105 - 5 CSM, Las, Inf, MoCU, Icon

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

115 - 3 Bikers, Melta, MoCU, Icon

150 - Defiler

1500 points - 55 models, 10 scoring units

1700

113 - Lord, Stature, Flight, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

125 - Lieut, Bike, Dark Blade, Melta, MoCU, Pers Icon

133 - 6 CSM, Las, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

96 - 5 CSM, Flam, Inf, MoCU, Icon

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

160 - 4 Bikers, Plasma, Melta, MoCU, Icon

175 - Defiler, Indirect

1700 points - 64 models, 11 scoring units (@ 1850 I ad a Defiler to this)

2000

113 - Lord: Stature, Flight, MoCU, Pers Icon, 2 CCW

125 - Lieut: Bike, Melta, Dark Blade, MoCU, Pers Icon

140 - 2 Obliterators

115 - 5 CSM: Las/Plas, MoCU, Icon, Infiltrate

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

160 - 4 Bikers: Plas/Melta, MoCU, Icon

175 - Defiler: Indirect

2000 points, 64 models, 12 scoring units

Something like these. Basically the hinges of these lists are:

- Have enough Daemonsquads: 5 squads is minimum I think. Don't put Daemonettes in squads of 12: two times 6 is way better! When selecting the Daemons, fill your fast attack slots first. In my experience the Furies, and to some extend the Mounted Daemonettes, are paramount.

- Icons: I have 3 Infiltrating and 2-3 Fast. This is an overload, less is possible, but I realy like the tactical flexibility this gives me. Keep the opponent guessing as to where your Daemons will arrive: have multiple vallid options to summon from at all times.

- The most impoartant is: Close the gap to your enemy. Your Daemons should never have to walk over open field towards your opponent. They typically suck at getting shot . Idealy they'll charge the turn they are summoned, or the Furies have already locked the most threatening fire on the opposing side. Infiltrate is a very important skill in a Daemonbomb: deploying last makes your opponent guess where he has to prepare.

- The Independant Biker Lieutenant is realy very good: get him.

This might be a nice Black Legion List for you:

113 - Lord, Stature, Flight, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

125 - Lieut, Bike, Dark Blade, Melta, MoCU, Pers Icon

306 - 6 Bikers, 2 Melta, Asp Champ, PFist, Visage, Mutation, MoSlaanesh, Icon, SkRiders

115 - 5 CSM, Las, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

208 - 8 Bloodletters (or more Daemonettes)

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

90 - 6 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

175 - Defiler, Indirect

1850 points - 64 models, 11 scoring units

Anyway good luck with your Daemonbomb Darrian. Posts some of yours sometimes.

Cilithan out...

**Longshot**

Easy, drop one of your defilers which you will never be able to hide and get another predator. buy stealth adept. then put possession on at least one of the predators.

**Longshot**

Also, not really sure why you want to put vehicles in this list anyway. Getting your army split up in escalation sucks.

Might want to consider revising the 500 pts you have spent on vehicles to something else. anything really.

**Cilithan**

Hey Longshot,

Sounds good, but that would require me building an other set of Bolter CSM, Plasmagunners and Heavy Weapons. For diversities sake I might have to do that some day anyway.

A list like this would spring to mind, is this what you're thinking about?

1700

148: Lord - Stature, Flight, Strength, Aura, Resilence, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

325: 5 Chosen Terminators - 2 Reaper Cannons, 1 Chainfist / 1 Terminator Champion - Kai Gun, Visage / all with Tank Hunters, MoCU, Icon

140: 2 Obliterators

115: 6 CSM - Las, Plas, MoCU, Icon

115: 6 CSM - Las, Plas, MoCU, Icon

115: 6 CSM - Las, Plas, MoCU, Icon

115: 6 CSM - Las, Plas, MoCU, Icon

177: 5 Horrors / 4 Flamers of Tzeentch

120: 8 Furies

180: 3 Bikers - 1 Meltagun / 1 Aspiring Champion - Powerfist, Visage / all with MoCU, Icon

150: 6 CSM Havocs - 3 Missile Launchers, MoCU, Icon

1700 points, 60 Models, 10 Scoring Units

The Tzeentch Daemons can of course be replaced by 2x6Daemonettes but that would defy the shooty theme of the list.

I'd like to be sure of it's quality before investing in more models

Cilithan out...