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Since Coruscating Warp Flame happens before the model attacks, would you wait to roll the Warp Flame hit on a Veteran Serageant with a Powerfist until just before I1 attacks?  Since it specifies "model" would the space marine player have to remove the Veteran Sergeant if he took a wound and failed the save?

Umm... What exactly are the entire rules for warp flame. My gut intuition is that only Vindicare's get to snipe.

The rule states, "Any model attacking the vehicle takes a Str D6, AP4 hit before resolving its attacks."

Each model gets it's own hit, so you would do the hit on the seargent before he attacks. It's not 'sniping', it just hits each model individually, so if you didn't kill the Sgt with regular CC attacks before his I1 to go he would still have to make his roll for the flame, and be removed if it wounds and he fails his save..

All kinds of things get to snipe.

Master of the Ravenwing on a Landspeeder.

Gift of Chaos.

Librarian's lame vortex power.

Read the rules and apply them. That simple. Plenty of precedent for individual models getting tagged.

Ah I remember now, you are right, Ravenwing does, Vortex, ya but how often do those ever get brought on the field.

Still, it seems to me that you aren't actually sniping with this one, this power, when people assault the vehicle, they have to save vs. a potential wound from flames around the tank. If you killed the sergeant before hand then that is that.

Your term isn't really sniping, its just the way things work.

Dragging this thread off topic, has Mind War been clarified so that it doesn't snipe?

Clarified? That's the whole point of Mind War: It allows you to target a specific model.


Back to the original question:

There is a basic dilemma in the rules when discussing wounds that are inflicted outside of shooting and/or close combat.

You see, the only rules found in the rulebook for wounds getting saving throws and removing models as casualties are found in the shooting and CC section (actually, the CC rules reference the shooting rules in some areas too).

So when it comes to wounds that are inflicted from a transport being destroyed, or other wierd extraneous sources, you have to ask yourself: do I follow the basic shooting rules for casualty removal (since those are the only real rules in the book for casualty removal)?

If not, what rules are you using? Most likely you're going by the "common sense" assumption that if a model takes a wound from a destroyed vehicle, or Coruscating flame (as a couple of examples), it gets an armor save (in most cases) and if failed, the model loses a wound off of its profile (and is removed from the game if it doesn't have any wounds remaining.

These are assumptions that "make sense" because that is how the shooting and CC rules tell us how to play. But those same shooting rules also tell us that we can take casualties from any model in the unit (provided it is within line of sight and range of the enemy's weapon).

So do we use that casualty removal rule against Coruscating Warp Flame or an exploding transport? If not, why? If so, what is the range and LOS of the weapon in this case?


Ultimately, the 40k rules frequently reference back to rules in other portions of the rulebook without explicitly telling us what parts of the rules we should be using and which parts we should be ignoring.

In short, since the rules are unclear I think you'll find the vast majority of players treat wacky wounds (like Coruscating Warp flames) just like a shooting attack against the unit. They'll roll all the dice together and then pull casualties from any models in the unit that are attacking the vehicle.


I think this topic will make a nice poll. . .

Wow, that opens up even more confusion for me.  If we treat Coruscating Flame as shooting hits then would I roll together for an IC and an attached squad rather than separating them out?  I had assumed they were close combat attacks simply because it happens in the assault phase.

You're saying to ignore the part about rolling before a model attacks.  I can buy that since it doesn't really matter how much before for the most part.  But there could be a case where it mattered.  Let's say I was fighting some 4 Orks with Burnas and a Nob with a Powerclaw.  If I roll them all at once I get 5 chances to kill some Orks.  But it's possible that a Burna Boy would take the vehicle out before the Powerclaw ever swung and that I shouldn't get that extra die.

And what about the Talos? I've been told that you have to roll for individual models for the sting rather than rolling as a group.

Posted By skyth on 09/22/2006 12:45 PM
And what about the Talos? I've been told that you have to roll for individual models for the sting rather than rolling as a group.

Which would be correct, because that is what the specific rules for the Sting describe in the Dark Eldar codex.  That provides a specific exemption from the normal shooting and casualty removal rules (and is actually pretty worthless).

I'm not sure about Coruscating Flame.  I'd be tempted to roll it for the 'group' of models that are attacking at various initiative steps - which is my off-the-cuff thought, and not based on the rules at all. 

Posted By Fatman on 09/22/2006 10:17 AM
Wow, that opens up even more confusion for me.  If we treat Coruscating Flame as shooting hits then would I roll together for an IC and an attached squad rather than separating them out?  I had assumed they were close combat attacks simply because it happens in the assault phase.

You're saying to ignore the part about rolling before a model attacks.  I can buy that since it doesn't really matter how much before for the most part.  But there could be a case where it mattered.  Let's say I was fighting some 4 Orks with Burnas and a Nob with a Powerclaw.  If I roll them all at once I get 5 chances to kill some Orks.  But it's possible that a Burna Boy would take the vehicle out before the Powerclaw ever swung and that I shouldn't get that extra die.

If you're talking about assaulting a vehicle without a WS, there isn't any evidence that you even seperate attacks by Iniative (all the models just attack the vehicle, the rules don't mention them striking at different times).

However, if we're talking about a vehicle with a WS (or you decide to use Initiative against vehicles without a WS) then most certainly you'd roll the attacks in groups based on Initiative right before those attacks are made.

So the rules say that the abilty effects models rather than referring to units.  And with a Dreadnought we're agreed to roll separately for the Veteran Sergeant suing a powerfist.  The shooting rules specifically allow for you to remove whatever model you want with the restrictions of range and LOS.  But that is because the shooting is targeting units and not models.  That just doesn't make sense here.

If we treat it as shooting and I have an IC attached to a squad with a different initiative.  I roll separately to effect him but the player removes a different guy?  The Coruscating Flame rules just don't combine well with the shooting rules because they force you to do things shooting doesn't.

Well the rules for the warp flame specifically state that each model is hit before making their attack. So I figure the RAW on that one would be to roll individual wounds for each attacking model separately (for speed purposes, I wouldn't stop someone from rolling all the dice for identical models at once). If the rule said something like "any unit attacking the tank takes a hit for each attacking model" then things would be different, but it does break it down to a model by model basis rather than unit by unit as shooting rules do.

Now we deviate from specific rules to my opinion. I guess there is no rule for using inish against a non-WS vehicle but I don't think its a stretch to say its reasonable to use it (it just generally doesn't matter). In that case, I would say that if the initial attacks destroy the tank, the power fist model would not need to roll.