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So. Ogryns are broken. T4 is not good enough when you're paying for three wounds. Neither is a 5+ save, but that's beside the point.

My proposed rules change to the Ogryn is as follows:

Make them T5. They're huge, and they're mean - they need to be able to take a Krak Missile or a Lascannon at least once.

Improve their armor to a 4+ save. Imagine a ten-foot tall 40K re-imagination of Goliath in Carapace Armor with a shotgun. That's an Ogryn, in my mind.

Fix the Ripper Gun. Give it AP5. The bullets on the model are larger than autocannon rounds. They need a little something to soften up their opponents with. Also, remove the +1 Strength benefit - it doesn't contribute much against heavy infantry with a higher armor save - and replace it with the "Heavy Close Combat Weapon" rule. That way, each Ogryn is getting 2 Str.5 attacks with a max save of 4+. Now they are good against MEQ, Terminators, Hive Tyrants, etc.

Improve their options. Here's some options that might work:

"Remove Armor" Special Rule: The Ogryns can shed their bulky Carapace Armor in order to provide greater freedom of movement. Reduce the save of the Ogryn squad from 4+ to 6+. In exchange, improve the Initiative characteristic of all Ogryns in the squad by 1 (essentially giving them Init. 4). No additional Armor or Invulnerable save-modifying equipment may be taken (No Carapace Armor for the Bone 'ead)

Furious Charge Universal Special Rule: Ogryns are ferocious, brutal creatures, and will fiercely attack an enemy that threatens their comrades. All Ogryns benefit from the Furious Charge Universal Special Rule.

Increase their cost. Not by much, mind you. Make their base cost now 28 points instead of 25.


What do y'all think?
CK

edit - brought up BS to 3, AP5 on guns, and made them a platoon so they don't compete as much for space with Veterans. also improved options. They should be nuzzling in behind Veterans. edit - eliminated doctrine conditions to simplify entry, got rid of vox caster nonsense

Ogryn-Specific Weapons:

Monstrous Close Combat Weapon:+3 S, +1 A, two-handed, Bone'ead only

Ripper Gun:  S5 AP5 Pistol D6; +1 S; Ogryns Only

Ogryn Special Rules:

Quick Shot - Ogryns may always fire pistols as though they were stationary

Good Throwen Arm: - Ogryns who upgrade to this skill may use Frag Grenades as Grenade Launcher - Frag instead of shooting a weapon  they ought to be able to throw a grenade as far as a launcher can...

Gunfighter - Ogryns with this skill and a second Ripper Gun count as having a close combat weapon. They roll two dice each per turn to decide the number of shots from their Ripper Guns and choose the highest.

Guard Infantry - and can access doctrines - Drop Troops, Hardened Fighters, etc. - like other Guard Infantry

It's Dark in There - as normal.

 

Force Organization Chart Slot:

 ELITE - 0-1 Ogryn Platoon (This restriction is removed when using the abhumans doctrine)

You MUST take a Bone'ead or a Junior Officer. You may take both.

0-1 Junior Officer 40 points

0-1 Bone'ead 65 points

                     s         t    ws    bs   w     i    a    ld    sv

Bone'ead    5        5     4      4      4     4    4   10   5+/6+ invulnerable

Special Rules: Stubborn, Monstrous Creature edit - he's been biggified!, Ogryn

Bodyguard: If a Bone'ead joins a unit of Ogryns, it may not be picked out by shooting.

Equipment:  Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Dog Tags, as Medallion Crimson Ogryn Bionics (as Space Marine Bionics and Imperial Guard Psyber-Enhancement)

Options: Close Combat Weapon +5 points, Ripper Gun +7 points, Carapace Armour +5 points, Monstrous Close Combat  Weapon +10 points, Plasma Pistol +10 points, Good Throwen Arm +5 points.

1-3 Ogryn Packs 20 points/model

                     s         t    ws    bs   w     i    a    ld    sv

Ogryn          5         4    4      3      3     3   2    8     5+

Pack: the Pack consists of 3-10 Ogryns

Special Rules: Ogryn

Equipment:  Heavy Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Dog Tags as Medallion Crimson

Options: Close Combat Weapon +2 points, Ripper Gun +5 points, Gunfighter and second Ripper Gun +3 points, Good Throwen Arm +3 points, Stubborn +3 points.

All the proposed buffs for boosting Ogryns as a resilient, aggressive assault unit sound great, but I don't think as currently presented, they quite fit with the style of play IG encourages. IG as I have experienced is "grab cover, pick targets, open fire!". This style of play is strengthened in the current book by not giving IG assault elements that are both fast enough and either tough or numerous enough to thunder across the field into the enemy.  Ogryns also have a contender. The unit to beat in the Elite slots is Plasma-totin' Veterans. If the slots are better spent on Vets than on Ogryns, then the unit will be a no-show.

Oggs could be buffed into being a dedicated assault unit, but they'd be alone in an army that generally likes to hang back. They also don't have the speed to get to their targets. 3 wounds, T5 and FNP notwithstanding, foot slogging Ogryns would get cut down under a hail of fire.

There is another route Ogryns could go, as an assault deterrent, counter-assault and general minder. In this role, Ogryns would lurk around the firing line, waiting for assaulty or disruptive elements to turn up. As well as counter-charging, they would work as a psychological deterrent, making the opponent think "it's not worth my while to get close". But there's a unit that does that already - Rough Riders. Small units of Rough riders kitted out with lances are fragile, but a great and fast counter-charge unit. If the IG general can have his cake (plas drops vets) and eat it (Rough riders), then I don't see why he won't!

Taking this into account, as well as Wight-Widow's and CoK's suggestions, Ogryns need a burst of speed, but they can't be as fast as Rough Riders, or it takes too much away from RR's. A couple of suggestions spring to mind. I'm mindful in RT days of a lovely bit of fluff that described Ogryns riding around in a converted, open-topped Rhino (W40k.. Companion? I think. The red book.). Perhaps the Ogryn Party Van could ride again! Alternately, Ogryns could use the Beast movement rules once per game... and could take a direct line towards the to-be charged unit, whether it be through friend or foe. (Crazed Ogryns steaming straight towards the object of their "affection" . That would give Oggies a burst of speed that could get them to a target, but make things interesting by making both players think about how to spend that single burst of speed.

My first thought for any thread like this is, would lower points help? Lowering point costs is easier than special rules or rewriting stats.

I agree with KK. There are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too many special rules being flung about this thread.

Like with all multi-wound creatures GW produces they are about 5 points overcosted off the bat.

I do like giving them the "heavy CC weapon" ability instead of the +1 Strength. They'd be a much more versatile CC unit that way.

Lastly, despite whatever previous Ripper gun fluff, why not make Ripper guns into Storm bolters? That would make Ogryns really good at sitting back and firing with the rest of the gunline and with their heavy CC weapons they'd be pretty good at counter assualt too.

If they were 5 points less than the current Ogryns and had those abilities I'd definitely take 'em.

OK, how about this then:
Ogryn drop to 30 points, and to BS2.
Ripper Guns, S4, R 18" Assault 3 (basically half range heavy stubbers)
Count as heavy CC weapons.
Can drop Rippers for a second CC weapon (and additional attack)

Drop to 30? they are 25 now so most likely drop to 20 pts.
Then remove the +1 str and add heavy close combat weapons and 4+ save.
Their ripper guns would then either be the half range assault heavy stubber or a storm bolter.
Make the feral ogryn doctrine allow them to switch their guns for extra weapons that also give +1str.
60 Ogryns would then be 1200pts.

Please, please, someone give the Bone'ead an option to buy a power weapon. Just one. Make it cost 10 points if you want. Either that or T5 so they can take powerfist hits and anti-tank shots and become a tarpit unit rather than assault.

I have not played with Ogryns since 3rd ed.  I agree with the counter assault use.  I used Ogryns as the assault/counter assault unit in my DWV army.  They were very effective, even against SM and CSM when equipped with 2 ccw.

 

Ogryns don't need to be a general purpose choice, perhaps they need to fit in specific places in various tactical doctrines, such as Jungle and City fighting

As to improving them without new rules. 

Their ccw could be choppas, with an upgrade option to 'uge choppas.  (forgive me if this makes no sense, I have yet to check 4th ed.)

How about the ripper gun as a heavy assault grenade launcher, multiple shots, poor BS, reduced range, but two S3 AP6 small templates.

Adjust points to suit.

Posted By ArchMagosAlchemys on 10/14/2006 6:34 AM

I have not played with Ogryns since 3rd ed.  I agree with the counter assault use.  I used Ogryns as the assault/counter assault unit in my DWV army.  They were very effective, even against SM and CSM when equipped with 2 ccw.

 

Ogryns don't need to be a general purpose choice, perhaps they need to fit in specific places in various tactical doctrines, such as Jungle and City fighting

As to improving them without new rules. 

Their ccw could be choppas, with an upgrade option to 'uge choppas.  (forgive me if this makes no sense, I have yet to check 4th ed.)

How about the ripper gun as a heavy assault grenade launcher, multiple shots, poor BS, reduced range, but two S3 AP6 small templates.

Adjust points to suit.

The "heavy close combat weapons" in 4th edition are otherwise known as. . .duh duh duh: Choppas, so we're all pretty much in agreement here (at least most of us).

I would personally shy away from a unit that fires so many blasts as multiple blasts are kind of a pain to resolve. I think Kyoto's idea at 20 points is just about perfect.

 

20 points per model. Ogryns BS reduced to 2. 

Ripper Gun acts as a Heavy Close Combat weapon (no +1 Strength anymore) and has the following profile:

Range: 18", Str:4, AP6, Assualt 3.

 

Presto chango, the perfect Ogryn.

 

...and immune to Instant Death!

CK

hmmm...the simplest way to do it might be to keep the points the same - @25 - and change the equipment to storm bolter, one-handed big choppa and medallion crimson. That keeps any new rules from being introduced at all, gives them something to do while hanging around the gunline, makes them more resilient to high S shooting, and buffs their assault even more - at S7 they'd be able to do some damage even to dreadnoughts and threaten Monstrous Creatures, further giving a player a reason to take them on top of or instead of Rough Riders. Besides, their choppas would be bigger than those of average Orks anyways.

My original post might have been a bit cluttered, but I personally still like the idea of making them Guard Infantry - which would be a very simple and IMHO balanced way of giving them access to all kinds of upgrades.

Max's suggestion is also strong, though I don't think it should be restricted to just Ogryns. Maybe just have a 25 point option for any units that could take a Chimera to instead be mounted in an open-topped Truck with 10 transport spaces, F10 S9 R9 - not as rugged or fast as Ork models, as suits the IG - with the options of buying a pintle weapon, extra armour and/or smoke launchers. The weakness of this option is that some might think it gives the Guard something overly Orky, and GW has been trying to distinguish the two armies since 3rd.

Your wish may be granted, wight_widow. FW are apparantly (sp. I could swear there are fewer p's and more r's in that word) adding the "Centaur" to their long list of Imperial Vehicles, which will operate in the same way as the Bren Carrier of yore. With a bit of luck, IG might end up withthe Chimera as the IFV and the Centaur as a cheapo coffin/transport. Personally, I'd only use transports in IG to transport Elites (and I'd think twice even then). If a guardsman ain't sittin' and shootin', the line is overrun or someone bought warrior weapons for a laugh.

Question for yakface. How do the changes you and KK propose stack up against against H-Vets?

Posted By Max on 10/25/2006 6:16 PM

Question for yakface. How do the changes you and KK propose stack up against against H-Vets?

Well, I think that Ogryns with the changes provide a different type of unit that is superior in a different role.

While Vets will still be the superior close fire or suicide unit, Ogryns with the changes become a viable counter-assualt unit.

While they don't have the gigantic punch of Rough Riders, Ogryns can get 1-2 rounds of shooting in  before charging. Changing the +1S to heavy CC weapons nets the Ogryns a very slight power boost against MEQs (with 16 total Attacks on the charge the changed Ogryns will cause 2.68 MEQ casualties as opposed to the 2.19 they did previously).

The big change, of course would be that the Ogryn unit costs signifigantly less points (5 points less a model = 25 less points for a unit of 5), so even if they go up against a PFist and start getting instant killed you aren't suffering nearly as bad a loss.

However after running some serous numbers I don't see any real reason that Ogryns couldn't keep their BS of 3 with an 18" Heavy Stubber for 20 points a model.

In fact, giving the Ogryn a BS of 2 along with changing their weapon to Assualt 3 keeps their effectiveness exactly the same! The only change is that they gain an extra 6" range (which definitely could result in an extra round of shooting before they get into combat).

So after more deliberation I think that:

 

20 points per model with the current Statistics.

Ripper Gun changed to:

18" Range, Str4, AP 6, Assualt 3 and counts as a "Heavy Close Combat Weapon".

 

Is completely fair and balanced and provides a unit that is worthwhile taking as a hold-the-line and then counter-assualt against nearly any type of enemy.

 

I'm a bit curious...wouldn't alot of the problems with multi-wound units be resolved by limiting instant death? GW already follows this practice somewhat by introducing abilities/wargear that prevent it, such as the mantle for marines, rune for chaos, and synapse.

Of course, keeping the stats the same, and preventing them from being insta-killed would make them a good pick as well. But if you want to get right down to it, I really think that a powerfist should add +3 to your strength rather than just x2.

I mean, instant death for everybody, not just ogryns. Right now every army in the game has easy access to such weapons, and a good chunk of them right now have a way of ignoring it.

Maybe this is for another thread though...

T5(4), the Kyoto pattern ripper gun and 20pts.

Job done.

Posted By Cpl_Saint on 10/27/2006 4:54 AM

T5(4), the Kyoto pattern ripper gun and 20pts.

Job done.

T5(4) still means auto death from lascannons and missles.

If my 100 points of (5) Ogryns tie up the shooting from:

6 tac squads or
2 dev squads or
2 Pred Annhilators or
3 fire-support dreads or any other multiple of a unit that sports MLs or Lascannon as their primary armament, then that's a fair exchange. The big scary things that would otherwise blow big holes in my armour are blowing big holes in cheaper and more numerous Ogryns. At 20 points per, Ogryns have far more to worry about from pie plates o' doom than lascannon and MLs.

Posted By the_trooper on 10/30/2006 2:21 PM

Posted By Cpl_Saint on 10/27/2006 4:54 AM

T5(4), the Kyoto pattern ripper gun and 20pts.

Job done.

T5(4) still means auto death from lascannons and missles.

Antitank weapons SHOULD kill infantrymen dead.  Even big fat ones.

Amen. I don't care how big your muscles are, or how fat you are; an armor-piercing missile should blow a hole the size of a basketball through you, at least, and an anti-tank-level laser would vaporize flesh and liquify bone. The extra mass an Ogryn carries would just mean that they might live long enough to stare stupidly at the mortal wound before keeling over.

How would T6, W1 go down?

The designers seem to agree with you, lord_sutekh and cpl_saint. (except for Mega Armour, Artificer Armour, dodge saves, force fields and especially Terminators...oh, and the way a devourer on a carnifex in 3rd had the same odds of piercing a chimera's front armour as getting through a Catachan wife-beater.)

With no protection at all from anti-tank and power fists, Ogryns would need to go down to about fifteen points. Space Marines cost 15 points for T4 and a 3+ save, which against small arms fire, power fists, and anti-tank weapons is the same as T4 and 3W. Boltgun and special weapons >= +1 S. No heavy close combat weapon or longer ranged weapon will balance them for any points cost higher than 15 if they go splat just the same as marines. With their existing stats and 15 points each they would be as balanced as basically ccw and pistol marines with -1 I, +2 S, Quick Shot and occupying an Elites slot. With one of those Centaurs, you'd have a reasonably solid counterattack squad almost on par with Rough Riders.

I had sort of seen Medallion Crimson as a compromise. They'd have effectively two wounds each against anti-tank weapons, or three against small arms, which would somewhat justify their points cost being close to that of a Tyranid Warrior than a Marine. An Ogryn in my mind should be about as tough as Colonel Schaeffer.

There are a lot of things I agree with and disagree with this thread. I really like


The good throwin arm, The acces to a second ripper gun which gives them an extra cc attack.
I like the idea you can give them mounstrous creature cc wpn thus having a STR8 bonhead.

However it would suffice to give him access to officer items, so he can take power wpn or a pwer fist
making him str 10.

I also believe ogryn should be T5. That way they are harder to instakill. This is what causes them to suck. If they get in with a Nob with a claw, they are done for each wound or kill counts as 3.

I also think they should be stubborn.

Access to the doctrines would be nice. WS5 and these abilities they might stand up to grey knights. That would be awsome. it would make them feared when they are on the battlefield. Rather than ridiculed as they are now. i used to love em but found out over time that they really sucked.

If you give them these abilities I believe that the points price they are now along with the prices for upgrades posted by weight would make them a smart choice to take. As it is now they cannot statistically beat the same points cost of standard marines even on the charge.

Ill tell you one better. They should have a special rule where you can distribute wounds rather than assign all to a single ogryn as is currently the case. That would be cool and make them more durable.