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Can the traitors infiltrate if the CSM has the infitrate skill?

"Infiltrate: Traitors are often familiar qith local conditions and defences, and are........ to represent this Traitors not led by a Chaos Space Marine Champion counds as having the infiltratora veteran skill as described in the CSM codex."

My gut says no but red shirts and others I have talked to said as long as the CSM as infiltrate they can infiltrate with the traitors.

Please read the Infiltrate Universal Special Rule on page 75 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook. Note that it is marked with a * and what that means on the top of page 74.

Ghaz... I'm not seeing anything there that's actually relevant to the question. The asterisk only deals with Independant Characters, not attached leader characters.


As for the actual question, I would say the 'not led by a Chaos Space Marine Champion' is pretty conclusive. There's no wiggle room there. Regardless of whether or not the Champion has the Infiltrate ability himself, the squad only has it if they are not led by a CSM.

The later Codexes tend to override the main rule book when it comes to restrictions. (as in the infiltrating Berzerkers arguement)

IIRC, in an early LatD faq, GW stated that traitor squads led by an AC could infiltrate so long as the AC had the infiltrate skill.

Subsequently, LatD faqs left out this bit.  That omission, coupled with the explicit language in the unit description, leads me to intepret that AC-led traitor squads cannot infiltrate.

 

I'd go with the more restrictive language here, the rest of the group DOES NOT have infiltrators if led by a CSM. Thus even if the CSM has infiltrator his traitors will not.

My guess is that Ghaz called into attention the special rules due to the fact that the whole squad, after the CSM with traitors, will not have the infiltrate ability, thus making infiltration impossible.

However, at the same time this rule only applies to ICs.

Again though, default to the traitors don't have infiltration if with a CSM.

I would have to agree. the rules are very specific and dont make any mention of the chaos champion having infiltrate.

However.... the rules make no mention of an arch heritic or allied chaos lord with the infiltate skill being added to the unit and taking away their infiltrate ability.

 

The rules also dont mention that my traitors can't ride the backs of a defiler and have it only cost 5 points for both the defiler and the two guards man using it as a heavy weapons team .

Im just busting your cajones. I was under the impression the most restrictive is the proper way.

Seriously though. People are always telling me when I ask rules questions to check RAW. Check the actual wording of the rules and play as is.
The EoT book says traitors infiltrate unless joined by a chaos champion. The aspiring champion entry states they are champions of chaos. The entry for Arch Heritic or Chaos Lords do not say they are chaos champions, but lords or luitenants.
So if we play to RAW then that does mean an independant character with inflitrate can join..... yes?

Am I way off here or what?

Hmmm. Well, Psyche I guess it could go this way: Do the rules allow for an IC to join a squad prior to deployment? I dont recall but I thought that an IC could only join a squad, that was not his retinue, when he was on the board.

thats so annoying, sThats why you have to roll seperatly for IC wishing to join a drop podding unit that they are not attached to Ie a command squad. so if you dont make the roll they arrive seperatly.

If the Traitors have an Aspiring Champion attached to them in the army list, they can't Infiltrate even when he has the skill for reasons already given.

There's nothing preventing you from deploying a Traitor unit using the Infiltrate rule and then deploying an Infiltrating IC with them. It's no different to joining an IC with any other unit during deployment (which is most certainly allowed), and there is no rule to say otherwise.

Hey,





RB pg50: IC Units can only Join other Units in their Movement Phase.

RB pg84: Infiltration occurs during Deployment (ie, before first turn).

Codex EoT: LatD Champs don't have the IC Special Rule in their profile.

Thus, they don't have the option of Joining Units *after* Deployment.

Traitors can't Infiltrate no matter what Skill the Champ has taken.




Playa

Hey,





RB pg50: IC Units can only Join other Units in their Movement Phase.

RB pg84: Infiltration occurs during Deployment (ie, before first turn).

Codex EoT: LatD Champs don't have the IC Special Rule in their profile.

Thus, they don't have the option of Joining Units *after* Deployment.

Traitors can't Infiltrate no matter what Skill the Champ has taken.




Playa

Hey,





RB pg50: IC Units can only Join other Units in their Movement Phase.

RB pg84: Infiltration occurs during Deployment (ie, before first turn).

Codex EoT: LatD Champs don't have the IC Special Rule in their profile.

Thus, they don't have the option of Joining Units *after* Deployment.

Traitors can't Infiltrate no matter what Skill the Champ has taken.




Playa


Sorry if this double-posted. Browser's acting up.

Playa,

RB, pg 61: "When deploying an independent character on the table, you may specify that it starts the game already inside a unit and place it in coherency with it."

I will also point out that I was referring to ICs (specifically Arch Heretics or allied Lords), not Champions. Unfortunately, I did not make that as clear as I could have in my last post. The first paragraph was intended to refer to Champions, and the second to ICs, my mistake.