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... help settle a little DISAGREEMENT on whether or not an Eversor assassin can charge after firing two shots from his Executioner Pistol if he did not move in the Movement phase.  Here are the relevant rules:

Codex Daemonhunters, page 28

Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook, page 29

Please support your answers.  Thank you.

"help settle a little DISAGREEMENT on whether or not an Eversor assassin can charge after firing two shots from his Executioner Pistol if he did not move in the Movement phase."


See, that's why you were having troubles, Ghaz... you weren't even arguing the same question as everyone else.

The question was actually as to whether the Eversor could assault after shooting twice with his pistol.

Whether or not he moves was never an issue, since with the Fast Shot rule they're one and the same... If he doesn't move, he doesn't move. If he moves, Fast Shot means that he counts as not having moved.

Either way, he didn't move.

I'd say its pretty clear. A model that doesn't move and fires twice with a pistol may not assault. The Eversor doesn't count as moving and thus may fire twice even if he does move. So if he moves (or doesn't, it doesn't matter) and fires twice he may not assault.

Posted By Ghaz on 10/15/2006 9:37 PM

.

Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook, page 29

Models carrying pistol weapons can fire them once in the Shooting phase and still charge into close combat in the Assault phase, but cannot charge if they remained stationary to fire twice.

Please support your answers.  Thank you.

The only part that allows you to charge after firing is shooting once. As noted right above me it doesn't matter wether you were stationary or not, it is wether you fired once or twice that matters.

Well unfortunately since he does not have an enabler rule such as 'slow but purpseful' or jetpack/bike/jetbike that speficly says he can shoot as if he was stationary and charge, I am going to have to say he can shoot twice and thats it.

As I highlighted in the second rule, there is only one reason that you would not be able to charge after firing a pistol. When is that?...



Does an Eversor have to remain stationary to fire twice?



So far no one has bothered to explain why the Eversor can not assault when the only reason he wouldn't be able to (if he remained stationary to fire twice) has not occured.


It seems that the only one who didn't understand the question was you. As the original poster asked, if an Eversor assassin uses his Fast Shot rule can he assault? The answer is 'yes', even if he did not move in the Movement phase.

Ghaz

It is very similar to Chaos termies and combi-bolters. I think the fact that the assassin counts as stationary means he can still charge.

- Greenie

Let run down the steps

Shooting
1.pick target
2.Pick weapon/ability
3.Determin effect of weapon
    Pitsol
    a.Did the model move?
        -No due to fast shot making the model count as not moving for the purposes of         Firing the pistol
    b.Fire 2 shots
4.Roll to hit
5.Roll to wound
6.Saves
7.Remove causalties
8.Check for 25% losses
Assualt
1.Model cannont assult because of the pistol rules (fired twice)
    a.Check for rules that bypass...
        -since the not moving rule only applies when the model fires the weapon, the             model still counts as firing a pistol weapon twice.

the Bike/jetbike jet packs rules per raw still wouldnt allow this,  because it speficly asks for rapidfire and/or heavy weapons witch a pistol isnt.

Slow but purpseful would allow the 2 shots but not the charge per raw again because they counted as not moving for the shooting phase and the pistol rule caused them to not to be able to assault.

as per the chaos termies, I dont have my dex on me but i believe they have a rule that speficly allows them to shoot thier combi bolters and charge, also as I see SM termies can't fire rapid fire weapons at full range or charge on the move due to the fact that the raw states that only heavy weapons are mentioned.

As I see it at this point I see 1 rule that says they can't and no rules that say they can

Although I would rather be wrong than right on this matter

And again, there is only one rule that would prevent you from assaulting in regards to pistols and that is "... if they remained stationary to fire twice... " Remaining stationary will not prevent you from assaulting, nor will firing twice. Only remaining stationary in order to fire twice will prevent you from assaulting will and that is a situation that the Eversor will never be in. In regards to pistols, there is no rule that forbids the Eversor from assaulting.

But by the fast shot rule he counts as being stationary for firing his pistol so he gets 2 shots and then because he was counted as stationary to fire 2 shots the 2nd part of that rule hits, he cannot assault,
Because he was counted as stationary when he fired his pistol
Therfore he cannot assault.

And again, counting as being stationary does not prevent him from assaulting, does it? No. There is only one thing that the rules say will prevent him from assaulting. That is if he remained stationary to fire twice.

So did he remain stationary to fire twice? If the answer is yes, then he can not assault. If the answer is no, then he can assault.

Since the Eversor does not need to remain stationary in order ot fire twice, did he remain stationary in order to fire twice? Yes or No.

Ghaz for president. One heck of a flipper flopper!!!

- Greenie

"It seems that the only one who didn't understand the question was you. As the original poster asked, if an Eversor assassin uses his Fast Shot rule can he assault? The answer is 'yes', even if he did not move in the Movement phase."

That's just it... you keep adding on that little 'even if he didn't move' as if it means something.

It doesn't.

It makes no difference whatsoever whether or not the Eversor moves. Either way, he counts as not having moved when he fires the pistol.

Or, to put it another way: for the purposes of firing the pistol, the Eversor counts as stationary, which allows him to fire two shots.

So, if he fires the pistol, he counts as not having moved to fire a pistol, and so can not assault.


Edit: More to the point, since the question was about the Fast Shot ability... If he doesn't move, Fast Shot isn't even used, since he can shoot twice anyway. At which point, he remained stationary to fire twice with a pistol. If he did move, Fast Shot kicks in, at which point he counts as having remained stationary to fire twice with a pistol.


"Since the Eversor does not need to remain stationary in order ot fire twice, did he remain stationary in order to fire twice? Yes or No."

Since he always counts as stationary when firing his pistol, the answer is clearly 'Yes'


It's also worth pointing out that page 36 of the rulebook also restricts models from assaulting if they fired twice with a pistol. No reference to movement at all in that bit.

So even if you do ignore that the Eversor remained stationary to fire a pistol, he's still caught by page 36, since he fired twice.

I agree with Ghaz in the sense that I believe the intent was to allow the assasin to fire twice and charge. It just seems like a pretty weak advantage without the ability to charge.

However, I completely agree with insaniak (and the rest) when it comes to RAW. Unfortunately GW wrote the description using the unfortunate phrase 'counts as.' If they had just told us that he can always fire his pistol twice we would be fine. Of course, that wasn't enough for them though. They have to go on to tell us exactly why and how as if it mattered. Who knows? maybe they meant for the benefit to only extend to being able to allow two shots after normal movement and not allow a charge. Maybe they thought it was too powerful the other way. They probably just didn't put that much thought into it though.

Unfortunately, since he 'counts as' being stationary to fire his pistol twice he IS stationary in game terms. This is similar to the argument that a servo harness plasma cutter doesn't oveheat. We know it isn't a TL plasma pistol, but if it counts as one then it suffers all of the same problems as one (Gets Hot!).

"I agree with Ghaz in the sense that I believe the intent was to allow the assasin to fire twice and charge."

Actually, you're agreeing with me there, too...

And exactly how do you figure that? The RAW does not support you. The RAW states that a model can not charge "... if they remained stationary to fire twice". It does not say "... if they remained stationary AND fired twice", does it? No.

You can not charge if you remained stationary and only if you remained statioanry for the express purpose of firing twice. They do not say that you can not charge for any other reason.

I agree that this issue is so very minor it isn't even worth the time you guys have used up typing your arguments to each other.

That said, I've wasted time on more idiotic points, so continue on. . .

Posted By Ghaz on 10/15/2006 9:37 PM

Codex Daemonhunters, page 28

The Eversor's heightened metabolism allows it to act with incredible speed.  The Eversor never counts as moving when firing it's executioner pistol (so it may always fire twice).

Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook, page 29

Models carrying pistol weapons can fire them once in the Shooting phase and still charge into close combat in the Assault phase, but cannot charge if they remained stationary to fire twice.

Actually, by RAW the Eversor only counts as being stationary when he's firing his pistol.  If you want to be a real stickler, had the Eversor moved a fraction of an inch and then fired the pistol twice then he would not meet the criteria that would prevent him from charging (remaining stationary).  Why?  Because he only counted as being stationary during the shooting phase (per the phrasing of the rule).  He would not have been stationary during the movement phase, and since he only counts as being stationary when he's firing that part of the rule no longer applies (because he's now charging, not firing his pistol).

I'll leave it up to someone else to extrapolate this concept further...

Discuss.

Which as I've stated means he did not remain stationary to fire his pistol, because he counts as being stationary when he's firing it in any case.


If someone told you that you couldn't charge with you're model that was stationary but you could if he moved in the middle of a game, you wouldn't really call it 'minor', would you? It holds at least as much significance as any other discussion in the YMDC forum.

Posted By Ghaz on 10/16/2006 8:06 PM
You can not charge if you remained stationary and only if you remained statioanry for the express purpose of firing twice.

Ghaz, the ONLY reason the Eversor counts as statioary is because he fired.

If the Eversor doesn't move, and fires twice, then he remained stationary to fire a pistol twice and can not assault. Fast Shot makes no difference here, becuas ehe didn't move anyway.

If the Eversor does move, Fast Shot kicks in and the Eversor counts as not moving, and so fires two shots with the pistol.

The only reason he gets to fire two shots is because Fast Shot makes him count as stationary for firing the pistol.

If he doesn't fire, he doesn't count as stationary. I honestly don't see how you can NOT see that this means he was stationary to fire the pistol... which stops him from assaulting.


But whatever. Moving the argument to a different forum doesn't make your point any more coherent.

I'll still allow the two shots in-game, and page 36 will still forbid models from charging after firing 2 shots anyway. Other than that, I'm done.

And counting as stationary because he fired is not listed as a reason he can not charge, is it? No.

true counting as stationary is not the same as stationary. look at bike and termies, they count as staionary for firing purposes. The rules Suck.

However insaniak is probably right as you cant fire twice with pistols and charge.
but then again Ghaz has a point. It all depends which way you want to take it.

My head hurts, gona lie down now, ,

Lord why do I do this to myself. I should stay out of this part of the forum and stick to the fluff sections and the discusions sections as there at least i know what i am talking about and dont leave there with a desire to kill

Here is the pure whittled down version of the rules that pertain to this situation.

...never counts as moving when firing it's executioner pistol...

...cannot charge if they remained stationary to fire twice...

I am assuming that 'counts as' is the same as 'is.' If we don't assume that then there are many things that go undefined in the game. I am willing to entertain the argument however to the contrary. I do believe that outside of the game 'counts as' and 'is' are two completely different things.

I am also assuming that "not moving' is the same as 'remaining stationary.' So if it never counts as moving it is actually remaining stationary.

I think we all agree on these points, but if anyone doesn't agree with them we can debate them. The next point seems to be where Ghaz's argument lies. "Why does it remain stationary?" This is important since the reason to remain stationary is what excludes the ability to charge. In other words, Simply remaining stationary alone doesn't prevent a charge. Remaining stationary to fire a pistol twice prevents a charge.

So, the real question here is, "why does it remain stationary?" I believe that it remains stationary because it is firing it's executioner pistol. This comes from the phrase, "never counts as moving when firing it's executioner pistol." To me that means the reason for remaining stationary is firing the pistol. I am curious to read other's take on this.

Yes. A model can remain stationary for any number of reasons, but in regards to pistols they only disallow assaulting if you remained stationary for one reason and one reason only and that is "... if they remained stationary to fire twice."

So unless an Eversor has to remain stationary in order to fire twice so he can count as being stationary he can still assault. Otherwise, what is the point of the Fast Shot rule if it only works when he is stationary and therefore would not be able to fire two shots on the move.

Okay now I really understand. Thanks! This has been quite helpful.

...sigh... I wasn't going to come back to this, but this was just silly:

"So unless an Eversor has to remain stationary in order to fire twice so he can count as being stationary he can still assault. "

Wrong.

It doesn't say 'If they HAVE to remain stationary to fire twice...'

It simply says 'If they remained stationary to fire twice...'

So it doesn't matter whether he HAS to remain stationary to fire, merely that he DID remain stationary to fire. Firing the pistol was the reason he remained stationary.

And the reason, as you kept yammering before, is what matters.

He remains stationary to fire the pistol. He therefore can not assault afterwards.

I think this is a rules corruption Ghaz, the regular rule assumes that all units will have to remain stationary in order to fire a pistol. Thus the language is overly broad to portray that firing twice with a pistol prevents assault, much like rapid firing twice prevents assault. In order for there to be an exception to this rule, an exception rule must be made (like units that can move and fire heavy weapons and can move and fire a rapid fire weapon and full length can still assault).

The eversor assassin doesn't have this kind of exception. It simply states that he counts as remaining stationary even if he moves to fire his pistol, he thus may fire twice. If he fires his pistol "AS IF" he was stationary that is the same thing as "being stationary" de facto, thus if he moves or remains stationary to fire a pistol twice (which counts as remaining stationary to fire twice) then he may not assault.

If the eversor assassin had a rule stating "the eversor assassin may fire his/her pistol twice even if moving.  Additionally the Eversor assassin may assault afterwards."  if that rule existed then there would be an exception rule to firing pistols in place. 

ATI - for reference refer to the discussion on Chaos terminators and combi-bolters... very similar in my humble opinion.



- Greenie

Ya I know, I was worried that my two statements might contradict there.

In the terminator instance I ruled in favor of the terminators being able to fire and assault with a bolter.  Although in that ruling there is a rule that at least vaguely can be construed to mean that terminators can fire bolters and still assault. 

Here however, the rule says that the assassin counts as being stationary to fire a pistol even if the assassin has moved.   The AS IF portion means that the assassin can move and fire twice with a pistol, that exception ONLY goes that far, the exception does not extend to giving the assassin that ability to assault afterwards, as the exception only applies towards moving and firing a pistol twice.