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Was playing a game the other day with my Iron Warriors vs. Necrons.  Here's what happened:

He has TWO 3-man units of wraiths and a destroyer lord with resurrection orb right next to them.
I shoot one unit of wraiths with my obliterators' heavy bolters, dropping all three.
I assault the other 3-man unit of wriaths with another squad of obliterators, causing zero wounds.
His turn comes, one of them gets back up.
It immediately joins his other unit of wraiths, making it a 4-man unit of wriaths in combat. 
Now comes the movement phase, and here's what he wants to do:
He wants to use his Monolith (which has been in play) to teleport the 4-man unit of wraiths out of
combat, and in doing so, get two more will-be-back rolls for his two dead wriaths. 
He argues that because the one wraith that got back up joined the other 3-man wraiths unit, the
two dead wraiths are now considered part of that unit.
A redshirt argues that those two dead wraiths are still another unit and by teleporting the now-4-man unit of wraiths,
he won't get to attempt to save the two dead ones.

Who is right?  If the redshirt is right, does my opponent have the option of teleporting the two
dead wraiths through the monolith to make their we'll-be-back rolls? 
I feel that if the unit is all dead, there should be no way to teleport them back because there is no
longer a unit to target.  Is there a necron rule that gets around this or am I just stupid? 

 

"He argues that because the one wraith that got back up joined the other 3-man wraiths unit, the
two dead wraiths are now considered part of that unit."



Thats a really sticky one, as i cannot find a rule that dictates what constitutes a fallen necron to join that unit.

Since I cannot find a rule, I only have an opinion. I think the wraiths should have stayed down as the argument that since the one wraith became part of another wraith group, the other two downed wraiths are by default, also a part of that unit, is a very shaky argument indeed. I cant find rules to back that stance up.

WOW.  That IS an excellent question. 

I would certainly let an opponent do it, as I don't think the downed wraiths should loose access to the Monolith ability.  I would, however, feel a bit like I was taking advantage of the rules if I did it myself... as stated above, the squad that initially contained the downed Wraiths WAS destroyed.

Hmm, then again, what if 2 wraiths from the destroyed squad made their WBB rolls, and joined a single wraith from another unit?  It would be a bit more difficult to say that the first unit no longer exists.

To clarify a bit, the redshirt argued that by word in the Necron codex, a model that gets back up after its whole unit has been wipped out will join another like unit if one is nearby.  It doesn't say that model's unit joins the like unit, it just says that model does.  So in essence the player would be shifting a model from one unit to another.  However the wording in the codex from what I understand is not as nearly clear on this as I'd like it, and I cannot draw any safe conclusions on the matter.

And to readdress my second question: What I meant was that if the redshirt was right, can my opponent decide to teleport the two downed wraiths by themselves as their own unit, not touching the 4-man unit?  I am under the impression that the two downed wraiths would no longer classify as a unit for targeting purposes of a monolith teleport, but I could be wrong.

 

Downed necrons of any kind are just markers, and have no direct effect on gameplay.

Here's my view.

The two that were still down are a separate unit, in order to get those WBB rolls from them he must teleport that unit through the portal and not the now 4 model unit. They were the one that failed to self repair. They were a separate unit when they fell, they stay as such until such time that they get back up and are forced to join a like unit. The permissive RAW would only allow the WBB roll for the models in the unit that failed the WBB roll. The two downed wraiths have no permissive rule that allows them to be considered part of the new unit.

The rule is if a model stands up after thier original unit was destroyed they then will join another like unit if one is nearby. That is resolved, by Permissive RaW, model by model.

The two downed wraiths would not have teleported with the 'new' unit.

Following the strict RAW from the codex, downed models have absolutely no gameplay impact, so it really should be categorically impossible for models to get the Monolith's portal WBB re-roll. When the unit teleports through the Portal it should leave the damaged Necrons behind.

However, it is obvious from the Necron FAQ that GW considers downed models still associated with their parent unit unless they get back up and join another unit. This fact is highlighted by the fact that in some cases the downed models are dragged along with their unit.

Under that pretense, it makes sense that when a unit teleports through the portal their downed comrades are still technically part of the unit and therefore they are allowed to get a re-roll on their WBB.


In the situation described in the original post, there are two different units. The fact that one of them got up and joined another unit is irrelevant. There is absolutely no basis to allow the two Wraiths from the other unit to get a re-roll on their WBB when the other unit is teleported through the portal.

In short, you are right IMO, but the rules are murky, at best, on the subject.

Seems pretty simple to me.
The two downed models are not part of the teleported unit. They only join it if they made their WBB roll; since they did not, they  are not part of  any unit since their original unit is gone.
For part two, he can't teleport a unit of destroyed models as that unit ceased to exist when it was wiped out. While individual models are in the WBB limbo for a time, the unit is gone, no more.

Both rules apply.  Downed models from a wiped out squad must join a like unit. Portaled models get a second WBB.

You would portal the 2 downed Wraiths, any that stood back up would join the 4 model Wraith unit.

 

Hope this helps,

Beatdemskulls

Posted By Beatdemskulls on 11/05/2006 5:47 PM

Both rules apply.  Downed models from a wiped out squad must join a like unit. Portaled models get a second WBB.

You would portal the 2 downed Wraiths, any that stood back up would join the 4 model Wraith unit.

 

Hope this helps,

Beatdemskulls

Interesting first post. You have ignored quite a number of rules and have instead just made statements as if they were absolutely true because you declare them to be so.

Rule #1 you've ignored:  Downed Necrons do not join another unit until they stand back up, so if models fail their WBB roll they cannot possibly have joined the Wraith unit that was teleported through the portal.

as a long time necron player i fail to see the problem.
the two downed wraiths are not part of the teleporting unit.
they never have been part of the teleporting unit.
just because one of the wraiths from the unit had to join the squad in combat, it does not mean that the other two do as well.

As yakface said, repaired Necrons do not join another unit WHEN they die, they join another unit AFTER they repair, therefore I think your opponent's argument is flawed.  The resurrected wraith is now part of the new unit and has lost all ties with the old unit.

Furthermore the unit of two no longer qualifies as a unit and could not use a Monolith by itself anyway, as strictly speaking there is no 'unit' to teleport.

Posted By Bolter on 11/06/2006 5:28 PM

Furthermore the unit of two no longer qualifies as a unit and could not use a Monolith by itself anyway, as strictly speaking there is no 'unit' to teleport.

Actually, I do believe the two downed Wraiths can be ported through the Monolith since the "unit" was able to get its WBB rolls with one of the Wraiths getting back up and joining the other Wraiths.

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 11/07/2006 8:14 PM

Posted By Bolter on 11/06/2006 5:28 PM

Furthermore the unit of two no longer qualifies as a unit and could not use a Monolith by itself anyway, as strictly speaking there is no 'unit' to teleport.

Actually, I do believe the two downed Wraiths can be ported through the Monolith since the "unit" was able to get its WBB rolls with one of the Wraiths getting back up and joining the other Wraiths.

I disagree. The codex makes it clear that the downed markers are not part of the game at all.

Clearly the FAQ changed this somewhat, but only in the specific instances it mentions (they can be dragged with their unit in some cases).

However, there is absolutely no rules backing the concept of transporting a whole "unit" of downed markers.

 

 

It is my interpretation of the rules that if an entire squad is destroyed and fails all WBB rolls, that unit is for all intents and purposes no longer existant, because under any definitions used by the game, it no longer qualifies as a 'Unit'. Therefore as it is debris only, as explained by the WBB rules, and does not qualify as a 'Unit' under the game rules, the completely annihilated unit may not be teleported to re-attempt WBB rolls through the Monolith.

I believe teleportation may only occur if at least one model remains alive to be teleported.

And for the record my reference to them being a separate unit is only to show that they are NOT part of the 4 model squad that did teleport.
(I reread my post and it appears I am saying they can be teleported when I was meaning that if they WERE to get the teleport WBB roll THEY would have to be targeted separately).

Apologies.