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Hello all! Here's another "take all comer's 1700pt" Eldar tournament army.

HQ

Avatar

Farseer w/ Guide, Doom, Spirit Stones

Troops

12 Guardians w/ Starcannon w/ Warlcock w/ Conceal (13 models)

12 Guardians w/ Starcannon w/ Warlcock w/ Conceal

12 Guardians w/ Starcannon w/ Warlcock w/ Conceal

12 Guardians w/ Starcannon w/ Warlcock w/ Conceal

12 Guardians w/ Starcannon w/ Warlcock w/ Conceal

12 Guardians w/ Starcannon w/ Warlcock w/ Conceal

Heavy Support

Wraithlord w/ Bright Lance, Scatter Laser

Wraithlord w/ Bright Lance, Scatter Laser

Wraithlord w/ Bright Lance, Scatter Laser

The idea is the Guardians form a loose ring around the Avatar (who makes them all fearless) - who himself is screened by the 3 Wraithlords. The whole army advances, pumping out a reasonable amount of firepower, while the Wraithlords target tanks. The 4 Monstrous Creatures should make most assault units think twice about assaulting the Guardians. Comments welcome!

Problem here is that you just arent putting out much firepower. 6 starcannons on guardians hit half the time, so over 2 turns you will only kill 5 marines standing in the open. All those warlocks and conceal powers eat up a ton of points. If all those guardians are fearless, who cares if they die in droves. They still have to kill off every single guardian in the squad to keep that heavy wep from firing. You could take all those points saved and invest them in units that can respond to the threats that the rest of your list cant handle.

I like the concept, although Slyde is right, the fire power is rather limited.

6 starcannons
12 shots
6 hits
5 dead meq's if not in cover / turn, 3 1/3 if they are in 5+.
Kill a 6 man lasplas squad every other turn.

I would go with BL/ML on the WL.

I'd also rather sit in cover than spend all the points on concealing warlocks, and with 36" range, you don't need to advance.

Maybe a scatterlaser vyper or 2 for objective grabbing/light vehicle killing if you drop the warlocks.

Not sure on point costs since I don't have the new dex yet.

This list does not have any thought put into it for winning missions and/or beating competitive lists. While the donut idea provides one with fearless units, the mesh armour of 5+ and 5+ conceal isn't much to write home about.

Indirect fire weapons will wipe out huge chunks of this list. Droppoding marines/termies will love to see this form of Eldar....etc.

The starcannon and guardians are finished. Build a list with the new codex/v4 mindset rather than trying to carry over former concepts.

perhaps you could try a list using the new eldar style rather than trying the old again, maybe somthing like this
HQ

Autarch
Jet bike
Mandiblasters
Laser lance
Reaper launcher
155 pts

Troops

10x Dire avengers
Exarch-duel cats
Blade storm
152 pts

Wave serpent
Start engines
TL. S.cats
S.cat
Spirit stones
145 pts

10x Dire avengers
Exarch-duel cats
Blade storm
152 pts

Wave serpent
Start engines
TL. S.cats
S.cat
Spirit stones
145 pts

Elite

5x Fire dragons
Exarch-fire pike
Tank hunter
80pts

Heavy support

Falcon
S.cats
S.cats
Spirit stones
Holofield
170pts

Hello,

I am not Zoned, but I do know him. In fact, this is not his list but mine, as he was nice enough to post it on my behalf. That said, I don't think he's done a good job of properly explaining the army.

A few points to consider:

- This is a horde Eldar list: Guardians (72) + Wraithlords (3) + Warlocks (6) + Avatar + Farseer = 83 models. There are also plenty of scoring units here.

- Ordanance would not necessarily be a problem as proper spacing would be used (loose spacing). This spacing would minimally affect the fearless ability of the Avatar as the rules say only 1 model in the unit has to be within 12". Ordanance is a problem for any horde army and is a generic comment.

- This army's theme was around mobile shooting footslogging, anything that did not fit this description was not considered. This meant no Rangers, vehicles, etc.

- While I agree Warlocks are more expensive, the cost for Warlocks is exactly covered by the number of Eldar Guardians saved (18 Guardians w/out is the same with 12 with Warlock {18 wounds required for both}). Also, the warlock has a number of other benefits such as helping the wraithlords stay unstupid and have witchblades as well.

- nikeforever22: please be more constructive than making simple statements. Perhaps you can shed some of your insight into what would constitute v4 Eldar that would be highly useful.
- Droppods will not be such a problem as a droppodded unit will have to face off against a lot of guardian firepower afterwards. If you drop a unit of termies nearby, you probably can do some good damage to 1 unit, but there are gonna still be 6 starcannons (plus guide and doom) and a lot of catapults to deal with as well as a possible charge by a number of Wraithlords or Avatar. Which is not such a promising scenario for a dropped unit.

- EldarXtreamist: I would like to clarify that I have never played Eldar before and this is my first foray into Eldar. Therefore, this list is hardly old Eldar style to me. While this may seem like old hat to you, please make constructive statements instead of unconstructive, unsupported statements. Also, I hope you recognize that not all players are looking to play the Eldar the same way as you do, and the fact that you've posted your army (which is 100% different from the doughnut) as suggested is both impractical and highly insensitive. While I can appreciate your pride in your own list and your advice, the list in and of itself does not provide enough support to institute change on my list. Perhaps a listing and reasoning behind the strengths and weaknesses of your list as compared to your ideas regarding the strengths and weaknesses of my list would be much more compelling.

However, I very much do appreciate the feedback so far, and would like to hear more from the Dakka Dakka community.

For future reference, I would very much appreciate:

What you believe the weaknesses in the army are.
The level of significance (some are minor some are holy crap what the heck were you thinking)
Why you believe both.
What I can do to address the weakness working within the theme and the 1700 points value.

Thank you all.

Zoner (not Zoned, cause his Ogres are....... good? I guess.)

You lack speed and firepower and those MCs are only so-so at counter charge. I'd drop 2 guardains each off the squads and switch all starcannons to scatterlasers. Use points for harlies or an FA unit (spears or spiders).

Another option would be replacing some gaurdians for jetbikes with spearlock (which would also help the anti-tank issue mentioned below).

Anti-tank is also an issue. If possible I'd replace the scatter laser on the wraithlords for missile launchers (not sure on points).

I think most of the complaints about this army take two forms:

(1) it is static--partly because there are no fast units, and partly because they have to maintain a close formation in order to work. This is a problem for grabbing/holding objectives, reaching out to get standoff armies and other mobiliy-related obstacles.

(2) There's a long list of things that will override/negate this army's somewhat gimmicky concept. Massed flamers, ordinance, fast fast assault armies, somebody with enough firepower to knock out the avatar (with a wraithlord going down first to clear the shot) and then boo it. Drop pods don't work that way--nobody is going to drop and debark in a way that gives you that much return fire. And the list goes on and is so long that I think most of the players who have reviewed this list see it as not being viable.

Zoner - it is difficult to provide feedback to you given that you have a counter for what we would call an inherent weakness in your list. Flavius Infernus sums it up pretty well.

Again, the amount of firepower that is put out is relatively weak for a shooty list. Moreover, BS3 along with S4/Ap5 range 12 isn't that helpful. If you can shoot it - they'll assault you. The starcannon is not a reliable or effective choice anymore.

HtH is an inherent weakness of this list. 3 WL and and 1 Avatar do not provide enough attacks or threats for a counter charge. As Flav Infer stated, any SAFH army will place guns on a WL, erase it, and then focus on the avatar. Once this is done, depending on the build, the ordnance will fall, or the other guardians will begin to be easily removed.

Please tell me how you plan to deal with the following lists:
1) Droppod Marines (played by a competent individual)
2) Godzilla Nids
3) SAFH IW
4) Any Daemonbomb (daemonettes love WL)
5) Any Chaos build since most have a 60% HtH composition which will rip guardians in HtH, consolildate, repeat...
6) Mech Sisters
7) JTS Tau

I'm sure you have ideas of how you'll negate it - but the general consensus is that this list should be reworked if you're truely looking for a competitive build. However, if you think that it is competitive and you win a lot with it - keep it, just don't expect many individuals from dakka to concur.

I think I'll chime in here. I play all kinds of armies and what I see is that if you look at the tyranid godzilla like, its got massive amounts of long range firepower that by the time its done will have decimated your guadian squads, even with the 5+ save. I played against a similialr list (your eldar vs my tau) and while it was a friendly game against someone I never met before. My tau was decimating squads left and right and by the end of turn 2 I realized that if I didnt play dumb I could very well wipe him out by turn 4. In my opinion Tau are not competative anymore.
What I dont like in your list that other than the 4 monstrous creatures you have nothing else solid, nothign else that can take a beating. On the otherhand... my V4 Eldar army would probably not even bother with shooting so much as in getting both units of 5+ invuln, fortuned and shadowseer protected 10 man harlequin units anywhere inside your guardian donut, when you counter with I'll attack with my wraithlords or avatar,.. my response is good I'll go first and rend them them to death. I'm sorry I can't offer many suggestions to make the horde eldar army work, it fails to be viable against competative armies and its not competative against objective based missiosn where you need to have mobilitiy.

On the otherhand if you want to make this work, and you are sure you want to do this. Give the wraithlords starcannons, and brightlances. drop all the guardian squads to 10 man, and find a way to get a counter assault unit in there. I don't see the point of having all those warlocks with conceal. Usually even in terrain barren tournaments you can find one or two peices of cover. So save the points and get something that moves fast and can tie up the enemy... (harlequins with a fortuned farseer!)

I think missions is what will hurt you the most. The army will have a hard time getting objectives, especially where there are multiple objectives. Cleanse, Recon, Secure and Control (I think this is the name w/ multiple objective markers) will be difficult for you as your whole army either moves 6" as one or sits still. On top of that, your opponent can easily slow you down with assault. You have counter assault, but that will cost you a turn of movement at a minimum. Also be wary of missions with Escalation as your lynchpin starts off the table. From past experience, I can tell you Ld 8 is not too difficult to fail with the Guardians.

In 4th edition, especially while using my Eldar, I've learned that the mission truly can and will win you games. As a caveat, I obviously haven't played the list you propose. Try it a few games in various missions and let us know how it fares.

You could always drop the star cannon squads for two units of wraithguard as troops. You should have about the same cost, and be immune to pretty much all but the heaviest fire. Any fast cc unit would be stuck on your guard, allowing the avatar and lords to counter at their leisure. Drop doom for mind war or fortune. You would still have problems with large horde armies, but it beats getting stuck in cc with your guardians and being unable to bring the lords to bear.