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Can anyone find the page number for their rules?

Too easy: Page 39.

Maybe I should be more clear...4th edition Eldar Plasma Grenades.

Page 39 just talks about Guardians...it says nothing about the grenades. Unless they have 2 printings already (I have a copy from the army box).

I tried to look for the rules in my book but I can't find them in there (except their point cost if you choose to take them).

With the new layout, and no wargear section I might have just overlooked them. They might be burried in a unit entry that I have overlooked.

Oh, never mind.

They are in the main rulebook.

For some reason I thought that they would be in the eldar codex.

Oh yeah, I guess I could have specified the rulebook, but then again you didn't specify the Eldar codex, so I just kind of assumed!

So when only one model has plasma grenades, what happens?

Does the whole other unit go at normal initiative, or just the guys swinging against him.

Ah, just d6 it.

Posted By mauleed on 11/09/2006 4:18 AM

So when only one model has plasma grenades, what happens?

Does the whole other unit go at normal initiative, or just the guys swinging against him.

RAW it would appear that the entire combat is affected by any model using a plasma grenade.

However in real gameplay I'd go with the more conservative approach and say that only models actually engaged with the model with Plasma grenades would be affected.

Either way, if its an Exarch that has the grenades (if they're allowed to be the only model in a unit with Plasma grenades) its going to have to affect every model engaged by the unit; there is just no other way to play it.

 

 

From what I can see, only 3 units carry them...

Autarchs (who have the option of purchasing them),
Striking Scorpions (who get the automatically)
Swooping Hawks (who get the automatically)

So only the first can take them and then join a squad.

Harlies get it with the shadowseer. "count as having plasma grenades" anyway

Well, if the Auturch is the only character who can get them, since he fights seperately in combat its pretty easy to determine who is engaged with him and thereby affected by his Plasma Grenades.

This also has implications for the Dark Eldar, as their Sybarites can take Plasma Grenades (while the warriors in the squad cannot), and the Succubi can take them (while the wyches in the squad have the option, but not required).  And, of course, IC's have access.

I've always played it the conservative way, but I also think that by RAW, if one model has the grenades, it effects the entire enemy unit in the combat.

 

So you would count the unit that the autarch is attacking as being affected by it, and thus striking at initiatve? So thus an autarch joined to shining spears assaults a single unit in cover, all attacks will be resolved in initiative order, correct? I have heard people argue that the unit being assaulted could choose to attack the spears at I10 instead, but I disagree based on the wording of the plasma grenades rules (negating the bonus from cover).

Ok, Cort, how about this:

In the grenade rules page 39:
"the unit using them gains the added benefit shown"

The grenade rules only confer the benefit of the grenades on the unit that uses them. Other units do not benefit from grenades used by a different unit.

To conclude that another unit gains the benefit of an autarch's grenades would be an assumption based on the general language of the plasma grenade rule phrasing. But it's an assumption that is contradicted by the general grenade rules, which specify that only the unit using the grenades get their effects.

In the character rules p 51
"Characters are treated as a separate unit when resolving close combats..."

An autarch is treated as a separate unit in resolving close combat, so he is the only one (unit) that gains the benefit of his grenades.

If you want to argue that determining who strikes first or what initiative models strike at or the effects of cover is not part of "resolving close combat," I think I can probably show that it is.

The problem with using that little snippet of the general grenade rules is that the autarch gains no direct benefit from plasma grenades. The description of plasma grenades says that a unit with plasma grenades uses them to stun their enemies and drive them out of cover, which has the effect of negating the effect of cover (I10 for the defenders). Thus, attacks are worked out in initiative order. The effect of plasma grenades is directed towards their target, not the unit that uses them.

If plasma grenades act by decresing the initiative of the unit an autarch is charging, I dont see how you can claim that the defending unit can choose to ignore the effects and attack a different unit with their cover bonus. They have already been stunned and forced to flee their cover, regardless of who they end up taking a swing at.

Yes, an autarch is treated as a separate unit, but not a separate combat. In a multiple unit combat, all attacks still have to be worked out in initiative order, and the grenades affect the initiative of the unit an autarch charges.

Posted By Slyde on 11/11/2006 3:48 PM
The problem with using that little snippet of the general grenade rules is that the autarch gains no direct benefit from plasma grenades. The description of plasma grenades says that a unit with plasma grenades uses them to stun their enemies and drive them out of cover, which has the effect of negating the effect of cover (I10 for the defenders). Thus, attacks are worked out in initiative order. The effect of plasma grenades is directed towards their target, not the unit that uses them.

You're making an assumption that the grenades are affecting the entire enemy unit, which isn't explicitly stated in the rules.

If a unit with Plasma grenades charges a giant unit of Orks and only actually engages ten of them in combat, those are the only ten enemy models the charging unit is actually fighting against that round of combat.

It works within the rules and makes sense that only the models engaged by the charging unit would be affected. If the other 20 Orks in the unit were busy fighting another charging unit they could easily be unaffected by the Plasma grenades hitting the ten Orks fighting the unit throwing the Plasma grenades.

So in the example I was working from, an autarch joined to shining spears assaulting a unit in cover, you believe that any enemy models that count as engaged with the autarch must fight at their base initiative, while any members not engaged with the autarch but instead engaged with the spears will fight at I10? If that is the case, then you only need keep the autarch in the center of the assault to force as many enemy models as possible to fight in initiatve order.

I still don't think so, Cort. The rules don't specify anything about engaged models being affected. The rules specify that the unit using grenades benefits from its effects. If somebody else is benefitting from the effect of a different unit's grenades, then that's the doubtful situation.

To be strictly strict, the rules say that the unit using the grenades benefits from their effects (one of which is cancelling the cover bonus), but they don't say anything about other units benefitting or not benefitting from those effects. The word "only" isn't in the grenade rules, so we don't know for sure one way or the other whether other units also benefit.

So the usual way to strictly interpret a rule of this type is to go with the closed world assumption: if there isn't a rule saying specifically that you get it, then you don't.

A looser interpretation might come up with a different conclusion, but it would be based on an assumption such as "all engaged units lose their cover bonus" or "the rules don't say that other units don't benefit, so they do" (which is a form of the fallacy of argument from ignorance). These assumptions aren't supported by a strict reading of the rules.