Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I wanted to run the numbers, and compare the compare Harlequins, Banshees and Scorpions vs MEq.  It seems like the Harlequins are the new choice for Eldar assault, even the core of a whole army, and the numbers look good for them.

Harlequin with Kiss (22 points):  3 Attacks, 1/2 hit (no Rend), 1/3 wound, 2/3 save = .17 wounds
Plus : 3 Attacks, 1/6 Rend = .5 wounds
Total : .67 dead MEq per Harlequin, .030 dead MEq per point

Banshee (16 points):  2 Attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, no save = .33 dead marines, .021 dead MEq per point

Scorpion (16 points):  3 Attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 save = .25 dead marines, .016 dead MEq per point

The numbers only skew more in favor of the Harlequins if they can charge.

Harlequin with Kiss (22 points):  4 Attacks, 1/2 hit (no Rend), 1/2 wound, 2/3 save = .3 wounds
Plus : 4 Attacks, 1/6 Rend = .67 wounds
Total : .97 dead MEq per Harlequin, .044 dead MEq per point

Banshee (16 points):  3 Attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, no save = .5 dead marines, .031 dead MEq per point

Scorpion (16 points):  4 Attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 save = .33 dead marines, .021 dead MEq per point

All of this ignores the Scorpion and Banshee Exarchs, though, so that's the last thing to look at:

Banshee Exarch with Mirrorswords (38 points):  4 Attacks, 2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, no save = .89 dead Marines, .023 dead MEq per point.
Squad of 10 Banshees and Exarch (182 points):  (9 * .33) + (.89) = 3.89 dead MEq, .021 dead MEq per point

Scorpion Exarch with Claw (43 points):  4 Attacks, 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, no save = 2.22 dead Marines, .052 dead MEq per point.
Squad of 10 Scorpions and Exarch (187 points):  (9 * .25) + (2.22) = 4.47 dead MEq, .024 dead MEq per point

It seems that Harlequins are the pretty clear choice here, since their Rending attacks and the addition of a Shadowseer make them pretty easy to deliver into CC and get the charge.

Scorpions have a lot of nice resiliency, and their Exarch is by far the most effective, but they don't Fleet of Foot.  There's really no way to get the charge with them, besides Move Through Cover, and that's not very reliable.  Otherwise it's up to your opponent to let you have it, or to charge already engaged units, pinned units, etc.  They have Plasma Grenades, which is nice.  Being able to Infiltrate isn't cheap, but is very useful.

Banshees would be great if you could get them into Terminators, and they're better than Scorpions in their basic models, but the Scorp's Exarch is so much better he skews things.  This will only get more pronounced as the squads lose models, and the Scorps will lose models slower.  Their Masks are nice, but Eldar beat pretty much everything in I already, and Scorps and Harlequins (w/ Seer) have Plasma Grenades.

I'd have to pick Harlequins as best, then Scorps, then Banshees.  It's shame, since that's pretty much the reverse order in which I like their models.

Comments?

Good raw numbers, and a good baseline from which to start thinking about these units. A couple of notes as these number pertain to actual gameplay:

-The cost per model numbers for harlequins should maybe be adjusted or include another category that accounts for the fact that most harlequin units will have a shadowseer and maybe also a troupe leader. The opportunity cost of the shadowseer at least (without which the harlequins can't charge into cover and have much less survivability versus shooting) is pretty significant. The troupe leader drives the casualty rate of a whole unit much higher on the charge.

-The scorpion exarch is always going to be hobbled by the fact that he has a different initiative from the rest of his unit. This allows a smart opponent to pull models at the higher initiative step so as to deprive the exarch of his claw attacks. The assumption that the scorpion exarch gets all his attacks drives the scorpion numbers artificially high.
-Banshees on the charge don't have this problem because they are all I10, but in subsequent rounds they suffer the same issue. Banshee casualties drop more in second and subsequent rounds (because of casualties and the iniative difference and also the fact that the executioner exarch is only swinging 2 attacks) whereas scorpions will hold steady for longer.

-Doom has a much larger beneficial effect on banshees than on the other two. I haven't done the numbers yet, but I estimate that banshees will come out with the best kill rates in a comparison against a doomed MeQ unit.

And, as mentioned, delivery is everything. I think that the only consistently effective delivery method for scorpions and harlequins will be falcons, so their unit size will usually be limited to 6 models, which is another consideration because of the limit it places on the maximum number of wounds they can score. Banshees now work in a wave serpent, so they can go up to 10.

Why do you say that Banshees now work in Wave Serpents, while stating that Scorpions require a falcon? Why couldn't scorpions take a serpent?

Banshees can fleet. So banshees can park the serpent farther away from the unit they want to assault and still get ino assault after disembarking the following turn.

Because they can't fleet, scorpions have to park their transport in close--well in rapid fire, meltagun and assault range--then sit there and eat a turn of fire before disembarking the following turn. Only a falcon can handle a turn of that.

I think a Shadowseer is a must, but I don't really see the point of a Troupe Master. Doesn't seem worth the cost for Ld10 and +1A.

I'm away from my Codex, but if I recall, a Shadowseer is 30 points, and has the same stats as a normal Harlequin, so...

Squad of 10 Harlequins and Seer (250 points): (10 * .67) = 6.7 dead MEq, .027 dead MEq per point

So, still the statistical leader, but not by the same margin as the basic troopers. This is an important thing to note, since a big Harlequins weakness is their lack of a powerful Character.



Am I missing something? How do they do this?



This is true, but I think it's overrated when it comes to a "hidden" Fist. The enemy can certainly pull casualties to accomplish this, but unless I'm mistaken on the rules, all the Claw needs is to be within 2" of a squadmate in BtB, and he's good to go. If there's so many casualties that this can happen, then the Scorps have already outdone their statistical averages by a lot.



So Banshees and Farseers go together. Good to keep in mind.



I dunno, I see Harlequins being able to get there on foot. They might not get there very quickly, but without open tops the Falcons and Wave Serpents aren't all that quick either. Harlequins run about 9.5" per turn, and while that's not Jump Pack speed, it's decent. They also are immune to fire beyond 24", so deploying them in best spot to run from, even if it's in the open, is fairly safe. It depends a lot on how the force is set up, too. If they're counter-assaulting, then they'll be easy to run on foot. If they need to chase the enemy down, they might need a ride.

Scorps can Infiltrate, which, based on my experiences with Blood Angel Scouts, seems very appealing. This gives you the ability to get a full 10 man squad in the enemy's backfield with no need to transport them.

I'm not sure how transporting will go. I hadn't pictured actually driving up, sitting there eating fire for a turn, then disembarking and assaulting. I was thinking more that the transports would move up a flank, or wherever they can find a big block of cover, then dump the troops there. Basically they'd just serve to get the assault guys a good chunk of the way across the field in turn 1, then let them use Fleet as cut-rate Jump Packs to finish it off. I have absolutely NO problem getting Jump Troops stuck in, so I assume Fleet models will be relatively easy.

I also think it's worth it to use 6 model squads whenever possible, just because the Falcon is so flexible as to who it picks up. This informs the assault squad choices as well... Harlequins, for example, need a Shadowseer, and pay 30 points for him, be it for 6 models or 10. He's more efficient with big squads. By comparison, Scorpions get so much out of their Exarch, going in squads of 6 just increases the Exarch density. In that respect, I think a Falcon heavy army is going to bias things more in favor of Scorpions.



Why only a Falcon? Isn't the Wave Serpent tougher, thanks to Energy Fields? Can Serpents not get Holo-Fields or something?

Nope, no holos on Serpents.

...and a power weapon (included in the cost of the character). 5 power weapon attacks at str4 (on the charge) causes 1.65 MEq wounds compared with the regular harlequin's .97. In subsequent rounds, if any, the master gets .87 to the regular harlequin's .67. And, again, doom will have a larger effect on a power weapon model than a rending model.

Staying in the transports gets you a lot of advantages over dumping the troops in cover. (1) you don't need cover--you can assault anywhere on the table that you can reach, which means you can pick the most vulnerable, most valuable, most appropriate target for your payload regardless of the table layout. (2) Cover gives you a cover save, but inside a transport you are completely immune to enemy fire. Would you rather save 50%, 66% or 100% of your models for the assault? (3) (except harlequins) cover slows your movement. Even with fleets and move through cover, you're depending on die rolls to properly coordinate your assault for you.



You can't disembark if you move over 12" anyway, so you're going to have to wait until turn 2 in any case. Might as well park where you can get out and assault--or force enemy units to move away to avoid an assault.

Fleet is much less reliable than jump packs. It works for tyranids because they have the numbers to have some units get their first and others straggle in late. Eldar need to precisely coordinate their small numbers of elite assault troops in just the right spot, or they'll get sucked into a losing attrition battle or left in the open and wiped out. If you always know that your assault troops can reach anything within X inches of the transport's hatch, then you can put that hatch in the right spot at the right time.

Until this edition of the codex, the serpent assault was much less feasible because serpents would go down and kill 38% of their 4+ save passengers on 1/3 of glancing hits. Now with vectored engines, the only way to stop troops assaulting from a serpent is with a glancing 6. Even if the serpent is immobilized, the troops stay inside and can disembark, move , fleet & assault next turn. It's like having perpetual smoke launchers on an AR12 rhino that moves at 3X speed.

Here are the numbers of Falcon born Harlequins. Interestingly the optional guns increase the Harlequins kills per points even more.

Harlequins charging out of a Falcon, equiped with Plasma Guns and a Death Jesters Gun.

Harlequin with Kiss (22 points): 4 Attacks, 1/2 hit (no Rend), 1/2 wound, 1/3 save = .03 wounds
Plus : 4 Attacks, 1/6 Rend = .67 wounds
Total : .97 dead MEq per Harlequin, .044 dead MEq per point

2 Fusion Guns (20 points): 2 Attacks, 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, no save = 1.1 dead marines, .055 dead MEq per point

1 Death Jester Gun (10 points): 3 Attacks, 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 save = .55 dead marines, .055 dead MEq per point

Falcon with 2 Shuricannon, Holofield, Spirit Stones and both Engines (210 points):
2 Shuricannon: 6 Attacks, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 save = .83 wounds
Pulse Laser: 2 Attacks, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, no save = .83 wounds
Total : 1.66 dead MEq per Falcon, .008 dead MEq per point

(The Falcons is pretty good at taking objectives and killing AV10 (rears) so the poor .008 MEq kills per point is slightly misleading.)

===>

6 Harlequins with kisses and Guns (162 points) + Falcon (210 points) = 372 points

MEq kills: 6x .97 from Harlequins+ 3x .55 from their Guns + 1.66 from Falcon = 9.13 dead MEq for the whole unit

Resulting in an overall efficiency of .025 dead MEq per point for Harlequins mounted in Falcons.


But this is not the whole truth. Should you be one of thouse who would even include an empty Falcon in their list for all his great abilitys like light armor hunting, point denial and objective taking, then you effectivly get his transport capacity for free:

6 Harlequins with kisses and Guns (162 points) + Transport you would buy anyways (0 points) = 162 points

MEq kills: 6x .97 from Harlequins+ 3x .55 from their Guns = 7.47 dead MEq for the assaulting Harlequins

Resulting in a very nice overall efficiency of .046 dead MEq per point for Harlequins mounted in Falcons.


If you want to have more resilient Harlequins with Plasmagrenades and Veil of Tears you pay 192 points.

Resulting in a still good overall efficiency of .039 dead MEq per point for Harlequins mounted in Falcons.



P.s.: I ignored the Harlequins Shurikan Pistols... So they actually provide 3 additional strength 4 attacks on the charge.

 

The Troupe Master is not as point efficient as the standard Halrequins:

Master with Power Weapon (38 points): 5 Attacks, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, ignore save = 1,7 dead marines, .045 dead MEq per point

Alternatively one may choose Kiss for the Master to gain versatility with more rending attacks (TMCs come to mind):

Master with Kiss (38 points): 5 Attacks, 1/2 hit (no Rend), 1/2 wound, 1/3 save = .42 wounds
Plus : 5 Attacks, 1/6 Rend = .83 wounds
Total : 1.25 dead MEq per Master, .033 dead MEq per point

You either take a Master with Power Weapon and come out at 0.45 dead MEq per point (vs 0.46) and give up rending attacks (and therefore struggle to bypass the high toughnes of some targets).

Or you pay 20 points for a single additional attack, when you skip the powerweapon for a kiss.

The only benefit of the Master is to squeeze in one more Halequine attack into an allready filled Falcon. (And in that case youd be better of paying 20 points to upgrade Shuricannon to Starcannon.)

Shining Spears provide assault and delivery in union.

Spear (35 points):
1 Shot before charging, 2/3 hit 5/6 wound, 1/3 save = .19 kills
2 Close combat attacks, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, no save = .83 kills
Total: 1.02 kills per Spear, 0.29 dead MEq per point

One thing to remember as to Scorpions is that they won't be Fleeting, while Banshees and Harlequins will. This means they should be getting a shot each with thier pistols.

Posted By Phryxis on 11/20/2006 12:47 AM

Banshee Exarch with Mirrorswords (38 points):  4 Attacks, 2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, no save = .89 dead Marines, .023 dead MEq per point.
Squad of 10 Banshees and Exarch (182 points):  (9 * .33) + (.89) = 3.89 dead MEq, .021 dead MEq per point

Banshee with Executioner is better.

3 attacks, 2/3 hit, 1/3 cound, no save = 1.33 dead marines, .035 dead MEq per point.

Also able to hurt up to T8, and AV11, as well as a potential pistol shot for .14 dead MEq.

I was thinking more of "hard" cover, something that can't be seen through. A building or forest can work, it's something you can move through, but which can't be shot through if you're outside and behind it. Then you go through, or around, and get the assault.

I am accustomed to assaulting with Jump Troops (Blood Angels), so I might be overestimating the effectiveness of this tactic. With Jump Packs, you can hide behind a building or forest, then just hop right over and pile into the enemy. With foot troops you have to run through, or around, either of which can be a problem. The Scorps with Stalker and Shadowstrike look nice here if you can Infiltrate them behind a forest, then move them through.



Right, but I envision moving 12" up to the cover, dropping troops, and also using the cover to limit LOS to the tank itself. It parks in such a way that it can see something it wants to shoot at, and it does a round of shooting itself. It's hard to block LOS to a Falcon/Serpent, they're a bit wide, but you can shield some of the field at least.



Yes, much less. Jump Packs are a consistent 12" and they go over terrain too, so yeah... I don't really view Fleet as a major speed thing, so much as a rule that lets one unit get the assault when the target can't.



There's no question that the tactic you're describing can work well, especially if you go somewhere relatively sheltered, or pick on a flank. It's not so much that I think this tactic is bad, as I think it's the second option if the terrain doesn't support safer options (which it very often won't). The stuff I'm describing is very situational.

I also think it's a Falcon vs. Wave Serpent question. While the WS isn't as durable as the Falcon (as you pointed out), it's also much less shooty, and has much less to do. Delivering troops as you're describing is what the WS is best at. The Falcon can be out hunting stuff down, and can also ferry a small unit closer to the action at the same time. It might make sense, for example, to drop a squad of assault troops near the front line, but behind cover, just as a threat to hit anything that comes close, or to get shooty squads in the area to start thinking about moving away. I'm not sure I can see sitting a Falcon out in the open to get shot at, just to get 6 models into assault... I'd rather the WS do that, since it's getting 10 models in, and I'm not losing out on a lot of shooting tying it up that way.

I think point efficiency is an important metric to look at, but I think it has to be used with caution when looking at Eldar.

With gaunts or guardsmen, where it really is a question of either upgrading something or just adding more models, point efficiency is a much more straightforward measurement.

With Eldar, where the assault troops are so transport dependent such that just adding one or two more models is not usually an option (at least not without also making the outlay for another transport and minsize unit) there are going to be natural break points where it is more efficient to upgrade rather than adding another model.

Harlequins are a good example. In point efficiency terms the troupe master may not be worth it, but if all your transports are full and you only have a hundred points to work with, the extra MEq kill for 20 points then becomes worth it.