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So the way I am reading Direswordis; if a Dire Avenger Exarch gets into combat with a squad of multi-wound  creatures ( Raveners, Ogryns, Tau Battlesuits, etc.)  then any model that takes a wound has to pass a Ld test or die.  So I guess it comes down to how  wounds are spread out amongst a squad.  I don't see anything specific in the rules about how to play this.  The defender chooses which models take the wounds but if a multi wound creature is hit it  has to pass a Ld test.

 I think the best way to play it would be each wound in turn followed by a Ld test so if there were 3 Raveners out of Synapse (I will get to that in a minute) then the first wound is allocated to a Ravener and if he passes his Ld test then he could take a second wound and thus be dead, leaving a single wound to allocate on a second Ravener for which he would have to take a Ld Test, which if he fails he dies.  On the other hand if the first Ravener fails his test on the first wound he is dead, and if all the Ld tests were failed the Dire Avenger Exarch could potentially take out all three raveners in one turn. 

OK so what if it is a Synapse creature?  This isn't "instant death"  but it does require a Ld test which Synapse creatures automatically pass other than psychic and targetting tests.   The description of a diresword leans very heavily towards psychic type attack however it isn't formally described as such anywhere.  Right now I would say that Tyranids in Synapse range are safe but I would like to see a formal GW clarification on the capabilities of a diresword.

Anyone run into this yet?  Anyone know of something that I am overlooking?

Posted By ptlangley on 11/23/2006 9:56 AM

OK so what if it is a Synapse creature?  This isn't "instant death"  but it does require a Ld test which Synapse creatures automatically pass other than psychic and targetting tests.  

 

 

Ummmm, how is that "not" instant death. Anything which would kill a model outright regardless of wounds is considered "instant death". They would be immune to the affect but would get no armor save. Basically against nids, its just a power weapon if in synapse.

The Tyranid FAQ states that Tyranids within Synapse Range are immune to the effects of Instant Death, Instant Death (pg 27 of BGB) is defined as a multiple wound creature being killed outright if a wound is caused by a hit whose strength is double or greater the multi-wound model's base toughness. The description of a Diresword says "dies automatically" or in the case of a Force weapon "model is slain outright." While these are deaths that occur instantly they are not a subset of the "Instant Death" rules from pg 27 of BGB.

In the case of a Force Weapon the holder of the weapon makes a psychic test, in the case of a Diresword the model hit must pass a Ld test which is a big difference.

Posted By ptlangley on 11/23/2006 12:35 PM
The Tyranid FAQ states that Tyranids within Synapse Range are immune to the effects of Instant Death, Instant Death (pg 27 of BGB) is defined as a multiple wound creature being killed outright if a wound is caused by a hit whose strength is double or greater the multi-wound model's base toughness. The description of a Diresword says "dies automatically" or in the case of a Force weapon "model is slain outright." While these are deaths that occur instantly they are not a subset of the "Instant Death" rules from pg 27 of BGB.

Bro, thats really reaching....

If you are quoting FAQ's you might want to also include the one that states tyranids are immune to wraithguns and d-cannons, neither of which is a double str weapon. This kind of deflates your arguement. There is ZERO way to kill a tyranid outright in synapse range.

This would be a moot point with tyranids as they would auto-pass the test anyway required by the diresword if they are in synapse.

There's nothing that says they're immune to the diresword's effects; it's not ID, and it's not a wraith-gun.  Also, they only auto-pass Morale, not all Ld tests.  Of course, it's not really likely to happen, considering the strongest wielder of a diresword is the Phoenix Lord, at str4.

It isn't stretching because Instant Death is a specific situation with a specific set of conditions. The diresword meets none of those conditions and as such it is not Instant Death.

Yeah, the dire sword doesn't cause "Instant Death," Poisonrogue. That means a diresword has its own rules totally separate from instant death. It looks IMO like they very deliberately avoided using the words "instant death" in the phrasing of the rule.

The rulebook specifies that "instant death" is only caused by something with a strength double the toughness value (27). A diresword is never going to have twice the toughness value of anything.

It's like a force weapon doesn't cause "instant death" either.

How is something that kills a model outright not instant death?

You guys keep quoting the rulebook under "instant death" but as i pointed out, the tyranid FAQ brings up the D-cannon and wraithcannon, both of which dont follow your definition of instant death. Neither of these methods under your words should count towards instant death, however, GW doesnt seem to agree with you when they did the 'nid FAQ. Just because they haven't written a new FAQ to handle things covered in the new eldar codex specifically yet does not mean that they are miraculously changed.

 

In regards to the dire sword, i dont know what codex you guys are reading from but it apparently isnt the tyranid one nor the eldar one. The eldar codex states...

"..if a model suffers any unsaved wounds from a diresword, it must immediately pass a leadership test for each wound suffered..."

tyranid codex under synapse...

"...never fall back and are assumed to PASS ANY LEADERSHIP-BASED TEST they are called upon to make other than psychic tests and those called upon for target selection."

seems pretty cut and dry to me..

"..

Posted By lord_sutekh on 11/23/2006 9:15 PM
There's nothing that says they're immune to the diresword's effects; it's not ID, and it's not a wraith-gun. 

By your arguement, there is nothing that says that they ARENT immune either? How does one trump the other. There is nothing that specifically says wraithlords cant fly, but we all know that to be false.

My point was that you cant say that instant death is a very specific term and quote the rulebook but then ignore the faq that states that there are indeed different situations other than those laid out in that book as was done in the faq with d-cannons and wraithgun.

There are in fact several instances in the game where the instant death rules are changed from what the big book says. For instance, tau suits. They still include their upgraded toughness when considering the possibility of instant death, even though the rulebook says this is not true.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 11/23/2006 9:15 PM
 Also, they only auto-pass Morale, not all Ld tests.  

wrong again....read the codex.

any leadership-based test.

nowhere does it even say the word morale in the paragraph.

Posted By Poisonrogue on 11/24/2006 6:42 AM

How is something that kills a model outright not instant death?

You guys keep quoting the rulebook under "instant death" but as i pointed out, the tyranid FAQ brings up the D-cannon and wraithcannon, both of which dont follow your definition of instant death. Neither of these methods under your words should count towards instant death, however, GW doesnt seem to agree with you when they did the 'nid FAQ. Just because they haven't written a new FAQ to handle things covered in the new eldar codex specifically yet does not mean that they are miraculously changed.

seems pretty cut and dry to me..

"..

Pretty easy, actually.  Take a look at "Instand Death" in the BGB.  Notice that Instant Death is capitalized.  Then read the wraithcannon, and the D-cannon weapon descriptions.  They both mention instant death (non-capitalized), but do use those words.  GW decided that since they used the term instant death, then they fell under the "Instant Death" rules from the BGB, and thus, Nids in synapse were immune... whew.

Now, look at the Diresword, no mention of instant death, capitalized or not.  Which means that while it has the effects of instantly killing your opponent, it doesn't follow those rules, for all the reasons mentioned above.  While it does seem to be splitting hairs, it is following the letter of the rules.  Just because effects are similar, doesn't mean they're the same.

I recommend that you send this over to You Make the Call, and see what people say, as its not really a tactics discussion. 

Doh; must have been thinking about normal Fearless.

If the diresword wounded a multiwound tyranid with toughness 1 it would cause instant death. Unless it was in range of synapse.