Phoinex Lords: Would you/Do you use them?

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**yakface**

What, if any, Phoenix Lords have you tried using with the new codex?

They seem so ridiculously over-priced I have a hard time imagining that I would ever field one. Anybody use them regularly in their standard list to good effect?

**Phryxis**

Asurmen is a bit too expensive for what he can do.

Karandras is an IC with a Powerfist. Can't see using him.

Jain Zar is fairly cheap and about as good on the assault as any Eldar. I could definitely see taking her, since she's got a clear purpose and should get a bunch of killing on the charge. An IC with no Invulnerable save, tho... Not a good thing.

Fuegan doesn't make a ton of sense to me. I can't see taking an Exarch with Fire Dragons, much less a guy as expensive as Fuegan.

Baharroth seems like he might be a decent solo IC. The lack of an Invulnerable save is, again, bad, but he can at least Skyleap away. The grenade pack is a nice bonus. Can he get 200 points back though? I dunno. He'd be one I'd need to play to really get a feel for.

Maugen Ra isn't too expensive, and his weapon is a superior Assault Cannon in almost every stat, include rate, range, plus it has pinning. Hard to beat that. After all, you pay 60 points for a Terminator with an Assault Cannon, this guy has a superior weapon, plus he's better in CC. Having no invulnerable save is still a problem... I think he'd be a good option to park near something shooty, say a squad of Rangers, where he can hide behind them and still shoot whatever he wants. Then, if they get assaulted, he can counter assault and make use of his relatively strong CC abilities. Of all the Phoenix Lords, I think he's by far the likeliest choice, and the most straightforward to use.

I think I'd rate them:
1) Maugen Ra
2) Jain Zar
3) Baharroth
4) Asurmen
5) Fuegan
6) Karandras

**syr8766**

Yeah, this codex is really 'Back to 2nd Edition', including Maugan Ra, Jain Zar and Baharroth's superiority as Phoenix Lords.

**Lemartes**

I have said from the start it's Ra all the way. Jain Zar is definatley a second and all the others are equal in my eyes. Ra's ability to ignore cover saves with rend is great.

**GrimTeef**

The Phoenix Lords are the only special characters that I have any interest in using at all. Their story, their mystery, and the fact that they can get around to anywhere in the galaxy when they want to be there makes them a bit easier to understand why they met up with a certain army at a certain time.

I am going to use Maugan in my Eldar Army of the Dead, partially because he fits the theme but also because he just seems to be pretty versatile.

I would really use any of them in a friendly game to try them out, see what they can do, though.

**Flavius Infernus**

In the old codex, I used Asurmen frequently and he was awesome. With the old defend power and a fortuned 3+ invulnerable, he could hold his own against bloodthirsters, carnifexes, pretty much anything except a C'Tan. Even if he didn't kill them (with many hits, but only str4) he could hold them up until help arrived.

Now at 100 points more expensive, the new defend power and his invulnerable save reduced to 4+, he can't fill the role of super-character-killer anymore. But he meshes well with the new DA's role as a CC tarpit, and is less likely to get swamped by lots of models with 2 attacks base (reduces them to 1 attack and they need 5's to hit him usually). He's much less fragile than the other phoenix lords and more durable than most Eldar units in general, so on his own he'd be good in a countercharge role, or as the model left behind when the harlies/spears/spiders hit & run.

**Sarigar**

I'm still toying with using Jain Zarr, but it's really hard to accept her cost as compared to an Avatar. Right now, the Avatar and Eldrad are my HQ choices.

**Xerxes**

I'm using Maugan Ra as part of my shooty footslogging Altansar Craftworld army, and I foresee him being very good together with the Avatar. Attacking the Eldar firebase will take some serious effort with those two standing guard.

Edit: though I do admit I may be talking out of my arse, since I'm playing my first new Codex Eldar game next Saturday.

**Alpharius**

I'm with GrimTeef as to why I'd still want to field them...

And I know he costs a ton of points, but my favorite is still Karandras.

Infiltrating (though the way it works out, I think you'd still have to give the Scorpion Exarch the Shadow Strike power to be able to infiltrate too, to satisfy RAW) with his Aspects.

And really, 8 strength 5 I7 or S8 I1 attacks on the charge (or 7 S5 I7 even if charged!) helps him retain some appeal.

Will I field him every time? No.

But he'll still see a fair amount of action, I think...

**Sgt_Scruffy**

I will field them because they are quite possibly the best models Games Workshop has ever produced, especially considering they are well over 10 years old. Maugan Ra is nice for a static shooty list.

**Longshot**

Maugan ra is the best character in the codex for a static shootie Eldar army HQ -- better than farseers or avatars or whatever. IC protection + 5 shot rending gun 4tw.

Fuegan is the second best without a doubt. Multiple S5 power weapon attacks, a BS5 18" meltagun. He's usable, as the boss for a squad of firedragons in a firedragon focused army (as he makes the squad suddenly really decent in assault with good positioning).

The rest of them are pretty much 100% worthless. Sucks that the spectrum is so bottom/top-weighted. Fuegan and Maugan are usable, the rest are utterly useless -- expensive, slow, lacking power weapons in some situations and lacking invulnerable saves otherwise.

**yakface**

I have a hard time believing that Maugan would be a better choice than a Farseer for a shooty Eldar army (or any Eldar army for that matter).

Maugan clocks in at 195 points and for less than that you can get a Farseer with Spirit Stones, Doom and Guide. Utilizing those two powers each turn in combo with other shooty units in the army will certainly cause more damage over the course of the game than 4 Str6 rending shots a turn.

**Longshot**

How does making one gun (or even an entire tank) compare to an untargetable BS5 5 shot S6 rending gun (4 shots if you decide to use the ignore-cover power) that can move and shoot, and doubles as 4 attack S6 power weapon at init 7?

Eldar don't really have enough units with the range to really make doom/guide rock. Dire avengers and warp spiders are pretty much it -- but to really help either of those you've got a farseer in 18" or so of the enemy, which is dangerous territory for a squishy little bugger like a farseer.

And even if you do land it, it is really only debatably better;

10 dire avengers w doom/guide v. marines: 20 shots, 13.3 wounds, ~ 4.4 dead marines

10 dire avengers plain: 20 shots, 6.66 wounds, 2.2 dead marines.

Farseer edge: 2.2 dead marines
Effective range: 24"

Maugan Ra v. marines: 5 shots, .83 rends, .91 dead marines from normal shots --> 1.74 dead marines
Effective range: 36"

Farseer vs. tanks: one singing spear shot at "I'm dead next turn range"

Maugan Ra v. tanks: 5 rending S6 shots at 36"

In an army that really sucks at long range anti-tank, Maugan is pretty sweet.

**Longshot**

I also guess I kind of have a bias against the farseer. He is completely a helper character, and doesn't provide what characters often provide -- decent counter-assault! That's another thing Eldar seriously lack . I can see how he might work with some brands of playing, but for a sit-n-shoot style Eldar list I don't think he really helps that much.

His powers have short range and he doesn't really help you do anything other than kill hordes better, which Eldar are already really good at if you make the right choices.

I guess I could possibly get behind some guided warwalkers given the right circumstances.

**Mannahnin**

Remember that Guide can make a massive difference for a BS3 unit, and Doom can help multiple Eldar units in the same turn.

On Tuesday, for the first time that I can remember, I tabled a local Deathguard player who's about my toughest local competition. 8 Banshees with Executioner Exarch and 9 Harlies (7 Kisses, Troupe Leader with PW) went into a squad of 14 Plague Marines with Fist. Thanks to Doom, we killed three with shuriken pistols and killed the other 11 on the charge before they ever got to swing. Just awesome.

I understand what you're saying about HtH characters, but Eldar was my first 40k army, so I was always accustomed to the Farseer being support and synergy, and using units to kill enemy characters. It was a fun change of pace when I made my Chaos army and had a combat HQ by default, but it's hardly necessary.

As for the original question, I agree that they’re all overpriced. In a large game I’d consider Maugen Ra, Fuegan, possibly Jain Zar or Karandras because I use those Aspects too. The lack of an Invulnerable save really doesn't bother me given the 2+ armor save and immunity to instant death.

**Longshot**

Yea I can see the appeal of the farseer, it just bugs me that they don't contribute to either of the big weaknesses Eldar have.

If I had to choose between Maugan and a Farseer, I'd go Maugan. But more likely I'd go with a 130pt Autarch. For dirt cheap they provide counter-assault and extra anti-tank.

My thinking on the PL's in assault is that they have high initiative, high weaponskill, and mostly high strenth, a 2+ save and 3 wounds with no instadeath. With a little support, those 5 charging S5 or S6 attacks will clear out a killzone pretty easily and deny powerfists a chance to fight.

Again I don't think they're great, but lots of situations I'd rather have more antitank guns and counter-assault than another Farseer.

**Durandal**

I've used Jain Zar with a unit of Banshees in a Wave Serpent. The 6 S7 I8 PW attacks on the charge are very nasty, and combined with the exarch with an executioner I've had no problem decimating marine squads. I've found it easier to use her then a Farseer and a unit of guardians hanging back and taking potshots, but its close either way. As with anything, getting the charge is the tricky part and I've only faced marines so its a limited sample. Her lack of an invunerable save is offset mostly by using my exarch to finish off that last wound on the IC.

**frenrik**

Eldrad and Yrial are the two good special characters. Rest go from alright to meh.

**Longshot**

Eldrad should have his name changed to "Mmm, Perils!" or possibly "The Glorious Humper." because your entire army has to hump him practically for him to be of any real use.

**Mannahnin**

I can't believe how strongly you give your opinions for someone with as little experience as you show. Eldrad is three kinds of wrong.

**bigchris1313**

No, he's D3+1 kinds of wrong.

**Mannahnin**

No, that's just one of his kinds of wrong. The others are "three powers a turn, including duplicate cast" and "Witchblade which ignores armor saves". Oh wait, I forgot "3+ invulnerable with re-roll". That makes four kinds of wrong.

**Longshot**

I found that he was kind of difficult to use for an aggressive army on account of you have to keep everything fairly close to him. That's my only real experience.

I don't think he's useless or anything, he's basically like putting a decent counter assault ability on 1.5 farseers in a single slot. But I don't think he's a super special value, and here's why --

Eldar is an army that has a really hard time swallowing a 200 pt HQ that doesn't produce either a) dead people, or b) more models. Farseers kinda do that by preserving your models or making it easier to wound enemy models, but they're fairly unreliable at this due to having to be right next to him all the time and the threat of a psychic hood/leadership penalties/psychic power immunities.

With Eldrad it's kind of acute, because he has the powers of two models in one model, so that means even more of your army has to be clustered around one point in order for him to make himself useful. It limits your flexibilility using Eldrad, because you have to find targets for 3 powers a turn and be able to make them count. Or for half the price you can get a guy who can churn out two powers.

I just don't see Eldrad as worth as many points more than a normal farseer as he costs. Maybe time will disprove that feeling but for now I will remain sceptical.

**Sgt_Scruffy**

I really don't think it's that hard to find uses for all those powers. I've seen all three powers used on one squad (a waste I know). Fortune one squad (in this case dark reapers) doom the unit he's shooting at (Plague Marines) and guiding the dark reapers. Result: lots of dead Plague Marines.

That's an extreme case I know but I've seen him used to good effect in more static lists. He gives decent counter charge and as has been mentioned, he greatly enhances the effectiveness of bs3 units.

A doom + guide farseer with stones (hehe I said "stones") costs 120 points. For this you get a 4+ inv save model that can cast two powers and has a ccw that always wounds on a 2+. For 90 points more you can reposition at least 2 units ANYWHERE in your deployment zone after everyone has set up, you have access to all the other powers, and that ccw now ignores armor saves. I really think that is worth 90 points. What are you going to buy with 90 points that can do that?

As an aside, I thought Eldrad died in EOT

**Brother Bartius**

Eldrad aint dead - confirmed.

He's just dead - nearly confirmed (still a chance he can come back).

So fluff wise you can always say that someones managed to charm him back out from the heart of the BS fortress.

**Mannahnin**

Posted By Longshot on 12/09/2006 2:51 PM
I found that he was kind of difficult to use for an aggressive army on account of you have to keep everything fairly close to him. That's my only real experience.

I don't think he's useless or anything, he's basically like putting a decent counter assault ability on 1.5 farseers in a single slot. But I don't think he's a super special value, and here's why --

Eldar is an army that has a really hard time swallowing a 200 pt HQ that doesn't produce either a) dead people, or b) more models. Farseers kinda do that by preserving your models or making it easier to wound enemy models, but they're fairly unreliable at this due to having to be right next to him all the time and the threat of a psychic hood/leadership penalties/psychic power immunities.

With Eldrad it's kind of acute, because he has the powers of two models in one model, so that means even more of your army has to be clustered around one point in order for him to make himself useful. It limits your flexibilility using Eldrad, because you have to find targets for 3 powers a turn and be able to make them count. Or for half the price you can get a guy who can churn out two powers.

I just don't see Eldrad as worth as many points more than a normal farseer as he costs. Maybe time will disprove that feeling but for now I will remain sceptical.

In an "aggressive army" he may not fit perfectly. Due to the ruling forbidding casting psychic powers from inside a tank, he doesn't really fit in an all-fast moving army.

If you don't see how Mindwar, Doom and Guide produce dead people, I don't know how to explain it to you. If you don't see how Fortune equates to more models, ditto. Fortune has been keeping my Banshees at fighting strength to kill more enemies for seven years. Now that it doesn't work in a tank, it's doing the same for my Harlequins (and occasionally an Avatar). I don't see anything "unreliable" about a psychic test on LD10, or about keeping him within 6" of the units he needs to assist. That's not unreliable, it just takes a modicum of attention to your army design, deployment, and movement. Certainly no more than playing well in general does.

Eldrad does make it slightly more challenging, but not really. You just need to have a plan. For example, a typical shooty build finds it really easy to use him. If you have the EML/Brightlance Wraithlord (one of the better uses remaining for the WL), you stick him in cover and keep Eldrad within 6" both to prevent Wraithsight and to cast Fortune or Guide. Guide on another shooty unit (or Fortune on your Harlie counter-assault when the enemy is getting close), Doom on an enemy unit within 24", and you're in good shape.

Eldrad is pricy, but the number of powers he churns out, his flexibility in using them, his immunity to instant-death from Perils, his 3+ invulnerable, his ignoring armor saves (by himself he can take on TMCs in HtH), and his redeployment powers make him a heck of a package deal.

**arebennian**

How about the Prince Autarch guy? I don't have the dex but I was glancing through it and he seemed to have a
* 4+ I
*a weapon that wounded on 2+ & ignored saves
*an 18" lascannon (tanks only)
*a blast AP3 power centred on him once per game
all for about 150pts (slightly more than a normal Autarch)

**Gothicfuture**

Back on the topic of Phoenix lords, I have to disagree with the consensus on Karandras; just like any eldar unit there are certain armies where I wouldn't use him but against some he is awesome. I recently used him in a game against tau where at the key moment he left his protective unit fleeted over to some cris suits and killled them, using the scorpions he was with as kind of a springboard.
Would I use him aganst a bunch of terminators? probably not.but he has his uses.

For general armies though I would definately agree with the choice of Maugan Ra.