Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can I pre-measure the distance from a model equipped with targeters to a harliquine squad with veil of tears?

The wording for the rules are not clear.

What exactly is unclear?

The targeter allows the firing unit to measure range before deciding what unit to fire at. If the firing unit decides to target the Harlequins it would then have to test for veil of tears.

Don't you think a case can be made that the targeter overrides VoT?

- Greenie

VoT states that you must test for the spoting distance if you are attempting to target the harliquine squad. Is targeting only considered when your shooting or is it also considered if your trying to measure the distance with the targeter.

Logically it follows that you target a model right before your ready to shoot it. But it is not clear with the current RAW.

I believe that targeter should override VoT as well, but again I'm not sure.

The targeter would be used to determine if it's within the range of the weapon prior to the decision to shoot correct? Or is it that if you measure with the targeter you must fire at that unit? I was under the impression that you can use the targeter to premeasure the range to see who is in range prior to selecting a target.

In other words, you are checking the physical range of the weapon. Kind of like how in Hordes you can always measure the control distance of the warlock.

So is the targeter used to determine if the squad even wants to attempt to shoot at the harlies, or am I totally off on this?

So targeter to check range on the weapon, then decide whether to shoot then roll for veil of tears?
or
targeter to check range, roll for veil of tears.
or
select target, roll veil of tears and premeasure anyway to see if the unit can even see them? Making the targeter redundant?

I think we're overcomplicating VoT. I think the whole "spotting distance" issue was used by GW as an abstract way of determining who can "see" the Harlies, since the holo-suits make them near invisible (or at least distort the senses of their opponenets). As such, targeters wouldn't have any effect.

Posted By ancientsociety on 01/04/2007 11:20 AM
I think we're overcomplicating VoT. I think the whole "spotting distance" issue was used by GW as an abstract way of determining who can "see" the Harlies, since the holo-suits make them near invisible (or at least distort the senses of their opponenets). As such, targeters wouldn't have any effect.

I agree to that, but my thoughts were directed to checking the physical range of the weapon regardless if they can "spot" the harlies or not. It could save a potentially wasted shooting phase if the unit using the targeter can find out if the harlies would even be within range of the weapon if the VoT roll allowed the unit to see them. See?

I do not belive the targeter would have any effect what-so-ever on the VoT. You would still need to roll for the spotting distance if you do indeed wish to shoot at them. The targeter only allows you to premeasure the range of the weapon... not the range of sight.

I'm probably reading too much into this.

Targeters allows you to pre-measure range to one unit before decideing which units to shoot. I just wasn't clear on the order of doing thing. Do I roll for the spoting distance first and then check with the targeter? Or do I use the targeter to measure the distance to the harliquines first and then decide if I want to shoot at them.

Can you use the targeter on something that you couldn't see?  How do targeters work in night fight?

I never use targeters.. what army are they from?

The terms range and spotting distance are not one and the same thing, so you can't use targeters to bypass VoT.  The systems should work as such.

You measure to see if the harlequins are in range.  If you elect to fire upon them, then roll for spotting distance.  If you with spotting distance, roll to hit as normal.  If not - sorry, but that is your shot wasted.

Avatar is correct (of course, he's re-iterating exactly what I said above).


Range is not the same thing as spotting distance for the Veil of Tears.

My question is can you use the targeter on something before you know if you can actually see them. If I failed my spoting roll, dosen't it mean that I wasn't able to see them? How can you use the targeter on something if you can't see them in the first place?

Will, that is what everyone is trying to convey.

Veil of Tears has no effect on the targeter as the targeter is used for check the physical range of the weapon.

You can check to see if the Harlies are in range of the weapon, then choose to shoot at them at which time you would need to roll your spotting distance for VoT.

You last question is logic based and while you are quite correct, the RaW here is going to be in favor of the targeter. You aren't checking to see if you can see them when you use the targeter, you are merely checking the range of the weapon.

Yeah, I got that.

By using the targeter, it is also giving you an extra advantage against VoT. I can check to see if the harliquines are close enough for me to even attempt to roll for spotting. I'm just not sure if that was kosher.

Just remember that Veil of Tears is not a "spotting distance". People get confused, and considers it like Night Fighting or Searchlights. It's a roll to see if you can target them.

Therefore there is no contridiction between the rules for the Targeter and Veil of Tears. The Targeter despite it's name only allows you to check your range. You are not targetting the Harliquens in anyway with a weapon so Veil of Tears has no effect.

Now Indirect Fire and Smart Missles are a different thing altogether...

Mahu, Avatar, Yak, etc. are right. Mahu has hit a good point, too. Remember that VoT has nothing to do with spotting or LOS. It is a psychic power used by the squad's Shadowseer to make them hard to target.

The Targeter works absolutely fine at figuring out how far away the unit is, and the IG player can then decide if he wants the unit to risk trying to shoot at the harlies, and being stuck with the VoT roll.