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After getting the second printing DE codex, I came up with this list. I tried to keep it fairly mobile, though I did toss in four 14 man warrior squads. I plan to use them in lanes of fire or move them into cover for fire support. Any comments are appriciated.

HQ

Dracon – 35 pts

• Agoniser – 20 pts
• Splinter Pistol – 1 pt
• Combat Drugs – 25 pts
• Haywire Grenades – 4 pts
• Plasma Grenades – 2 pts
• Shadow Field – 25 pts

Total – 102 pts

<strong style="">HQ Total – 102 pts [/b]

Elites

Wyches (x10) – 120 pts

• Plasma Grenades – 10 pts
• Wych Weapons – 10 pts
• Succubus – 8 pts
  • Agoniser – 20 pts

• Raider – 55 pts
  • Horrorfex – 5 pts

Total – 228 pts

Wyches (as above) – 228 pts
Wyches (x9) (upgrades as above) – 214 pts

<strong style="">Elites Total – 670 pts [/b]

Troops

Warrior Squad (x14) – 112 pts

• Dark Lances (x2) – 20 pts

Total – 132 pts

Warrior Squad (as above) – 132 pts
Warrior Squad (as above) – 132 pts
Warrior Squad (as above) – 132 pts

Raider Squad (x10) – 80 pts

• Blaster – 5 pts
• Splinter Cannon – 10 pts
• Raider – 55 pts

<!--[if !supportLists]-->o       <!--[endif]-->Horrorfex – 5 pts

Total – 155 pts

Raider Squad (as above) – 155 pts

<strong style="">Troops Total – 838 [/b]

Heavy Support

Ravager – 105 pts

• Disintegrators (x3) – 15 pts

Total – 120 pts

Ravager (as above) – 120 pts

<strong style="">Heavy Support Total – 240 pts

Army Total – 1850 pts [/b]

It is a good list.  I would alter it somewhat.  Your cc troops are vunerable without a webway portal, but cover could help them get into position.

In a game above 1750 I would recommend an Archon instead of the Dracon.  To do this I would cut back on the wyches.  It gives you an extra wound, and higher init.

I find that 7 and a succubus is a good squad.  You have 3 above that.  If I take a Disentegrator on a Raider, I also take a Horrorfex, its cheap and works great.  As I said, 3 wych squads are very vunerable without a Webway portal.  You essentially have one Raider squad to screen them, any opponent that knows that they are, well lets say they will be targeted with extreme  predjudice.

I myself run with 3 sniper squads, aka the DL toting warriors.  10 and 2 lances in cover are great, you could cut back on the warriors if you needed to.  The Raider squad is ok, in 4th edition raider squads are mainly support for assaulting.  I would think about adding some pinning ability to them if you wanted to just use them as fire support.

2 Ravagers is great fire support, I run 2 Dissies and one DL myself, as it is flexible and helps with armor and MC's.

I would want to run a webway portal and maybe put them on Haemy's or sybarites in the DL squads.  That would allow you to get your assault troops into position without getting them shot up.

With good terrain, you could do well, with little terrain, you might have to rely on first turn like all raider rush armies.

As with all lists I would ask what is your plan for each unit? Here are my comments and opinions.

You've got a Dracon there by his lonesome, presumably he is going to ride with 9 person wych squad. But what about Escalation? You'll end up with him sitting off by his lonesome surrounded by a bunch of warriors. Just keep in mind what you want him to do in this situation.

Drop the Horrorfexes. Do the math on how infrequently 1) you would use them and 2) they actually do anything and compare that to firing the DL on those raiders. Sure they're cheap at 5 points but those points add up, I count 25 points spent on them.

Why do your warrior squads have 14 models each? The purpose of these guys is to get in position and fire the DL's. The extra guys don't do much but suck up points. That's 128 points doing nothing.

What is the purpose of the 2 raider squads with SCs? If they are going to fly within the 24" range of the SC's and let you fire (or worse the 12" range of the blasters) then you have exposed a tinfoil Raider to rapid fire from the enemy. You'll get 1 round of firing from this squad used this way before it is essentially gone. All for 4 S4 shots (only 1 SC per squad)? If your plan is to disembark the squad and have them move within firing range (and have the Raider operate on its own) the same thing applies. Even if you use this squad only vs enemy assaulty units they'll get eaten alive by any dedicated assault unit as well. You're better taking DL's here again and disembarking them or not taking the raiders at all. IMO there is no reason to ever use SC's in any take all comers DE list.

Something else to consider if you don't go first you will deploy 5 Raiders and 2 Ravagers sitting there...motionless. You will lost a large portion of your army before you even get to move a figure vs a shooty army. Going first will matter a lot with this list. That's why WWP lists usually work better. Your Raiders come on and either deploy or get to cover with moving over 12" and are never at this much risk. I would take the 153 points saved above and put 2 WWPs in your list and re-jigger it a bit to have the units coming out of the WWP be more efficient.

Horrorfexes are now Defensive weapons, so they are in addition to firing the DL or Dissie.  This was in the DE FAQ update.  It is worth 5 points, and if by chance you get a weapon destroyed on the Raider, you still have one, even though it is a flying coffin.  Pinning is one of the things DE can do rather well, it is a decent option and I think it is worthwhile.  True 5 is alot, but if you get one or 2 pinned units, then it was worth it imo.  Those squads sit and wait to die, how is that not worth 5 points each?  I've had good success with the horrorfex.

I loathe Raider Squads.  I think they are a waste of points.  On a Raider squad it is limited to one blaster/shredder and one DL or splinter cannon.  I think the DL deployed somewhere and the Raider taking pot shots is a better option.  Either that or simply making them an assault support squad with a sybarite w/ pb's or agonizer.

>Horrorfexes are now Defensive weapons, so they are in addition to firing the DL or Dissie.

Sorry I was not clear earlier I meant you should stay at the DL's 36" range and fire them as opposed to the horrorfexes much shorter range (which exposes you to rapid fire weapons).  Also run the math on the horrorfexes.  They're junk.  With the DE BS4 here are your chances of pinning a squad before modifiers:
LD10 5.6%  (2/3 to hit * 3/36 chance to fail the ld check)
LD9 11.1%
LD8 18.5%
LD7 27.8%
LD6 38.9%
It is rare to encounter units with ld under 9 or 10 (that aren't immune) so even with modifiers you simply won't pin often enough to make it worth the points. 

Marines (just as the most common opponent) these days have ld10 across the board with a master more often than not.  Verses any competant player who knows you might have disintegrators you won't get more than 1 model under the template so you have a 5% chance to pin every time you shoot (11% if the marine squad is under half strength).  You fired from within 18" so next turn you are very likely to take bolter fire.  You shouldn't do this if the 'fex was *free* much less pay points to do this.

>but if you get one or 2 pinned units, then it was worth it imo.
Let's see at a 5.6% chance to pin per shot if you stayed within bolter range to fire every turn (and somehow the raider wasn't destroyed) it would take you 2.9 games to pin a marine squad with a horrorfex.  See what I mean?  In the original poster's list if all 5 'fexes fired every turn (and again, somehow, the raiders were never destroyed) you would pin on average 1.6 marine squads over a single game.  Mind you over that same time the DL's on those raiders will account for 55.6% of a marine model per shot or 16.7 models over the game.  In other words statistically the DL's will destroy the squad before the Horrorfexes pin it.  So the answer is save the points and stay at range firing the DL's.

>I loathe Raider Squads.  I think they are a waste of points. ...
>I think the DL deployed somewhere and the Raider taking pot shots is a better option.  Either that or simply making
>them an assault support squad with a sybarite w/ pb's or agonizer.

I agree, they're just not good you are better with ground DL squads or Wych squads (running a wych cult list).  IMO there is no reason to make them an assault squad when you can have Wyches though.  If you need more than 3 assault squads run Wych cult...which is better because you can then take a Wych retinue with the HQ and avoid the problem of him being alone.

I have taken your advise and put together a modified list. I do think it will do better, especially with the Webway portals thrown in. My only issue with it is its model count, though I will post it as is and see what you think.

HQ

  Dracon – 35 pts

• Agoniser – 20 pts
• Splinter Pistol – 1 pt
• Combat Drugs – 25 pts
• Haywire Grenades – 4 pts
• Plasma Grenades – 2 pts
• Shadow Field – 25 pts

Total – 102 pts

<strong style="">   [/b]Haemonculi (x2) – 50 pts

• Scissorhand (x2) – 10 pts
• Stinger (x2) – 10 pts
• Webway Portal (x2) – 100 pts

Total – 170 pts

<strong style="">   HQ Total – 272 pts [/b]

Elites

  Wyches (x10) – 120 pts

• Plasma Grenades – 10 pts
• Wych Weapons – 10 pts
• Succubus – 8 pts
  • Agoniser – 20 pts

• Raider – 55 pts

Total – 223 pts

Wyches (as above) – 223 pts
Wyches (x9) (upgrades as above) – 211 pts

  <strong style="">Elites Total – 655 pts [/b]

<strong style="">   [/b]Troops

  Warrior Squad (x10) – 80 pts

• Dark Lances (x2) – 20 pts

Total – 100 pts

Warrior Squad (as above) – 100 pts
Warrior Squad (as above) – 100 pts
Warrior Squad (as above) – 100 pts
Warrior Squad (as above) – 100 pts

  <strong style="">Troops Total – 500[/b]

Fast Attack

  Hellions (x10) – 180 pts

  <strong style="">Fast Attack Total – 180 pts [/b]

  Heavy Support

  Ravager – 105 pts

• Disintegrators (x3) – 15 pts

Total – 120 pts

  Ravager (as above) – 120 pts

  <strong style="">Heavy Support Total – 240 pts [/b]

<strong style="">Army Total – 1847 pts [/b]

The DE Lord will run with the 9 man wych squad, and with the Webways, escallation shouldnt be an issue. I have been thinking, however, that he may be better on a skyboard and just run as an IC.

The haemonculi will be placed on separate sides of the board, behind the warriors. Though they are expensive, with over 1/3 of my army in reserve, I thought it best to have two just to make sure a WWP is down.

The warriors will snipe as you mentioned. I originally had 14 man squads for the extra wounds and higher numbers in regards to falling back, though with cover it should make them just as tough.

The wyches and hellions will do what they always do ... own in CC. I added in the hellions to boost my CC numbers without needed to go for a wych cult.

Hopefully this list is abit better. I personally like the changes.

Hellions are an ok unit, they are overpriced, but look good.  I have a big squad painted with a blaster and a sybarite with agonizer and have not used them but on rare occasion, 2250 games and the like.  They are a support squad, nothing more.  If you kill everything and nothing strikes back, then they work, otherwise, they die very quickly.  My opinion, hellions suck like scourges, atleast they look better.

Stingers are not very effective either, but I guess it lets your Haemmies do something.  The same argument for HF's could be used against them.

I would put the Haemmies close to the Warrior squads for IC targetting rules.  A sybartie with portal in a beefy squad is a cheaper option, but that would require a larger DE warrior squad.

You may have the math on the bare minimum for HF's, but I don't know all the opponents you play, but guard that are close together(close order drills), deepstruck models, teleported(Necrons) and the like are vulnerable.  You should be able to atleast get one model and some partials on any hit, and my mileage in games since they have been introduced have taken advantage of them.  As I stated Dissies/HF is a much better option.  I never used DL/HF.  Shoot the HF first, and then the dissie.  Trot out math all you want, I think they are useful and not a waste of points.

3 Wych squads with no Warp beast, who are good out of a portal, as well as a Talos if you are going to the WWP army.  Troops win games but model count is not everything.  Lets face it, if you lose every warrior and your Wyches get into CC, you likely are doing well enough to win.  Warriors are expendable period.

Archon is still a better option by himself, but I wish you luck.  The Dracon would be better served being with the Wyches.

I like the horrorfexes as well. I just dropped them in this list to make room for the hellions. Since you say they arnt worth their points, I will likely puts the HF's in. When I bought them, I did see their use, and range wont be an issue. Sure, I would rather ravagers didnt get that close, but the raiders are ment to get the wyches into CC and will have range more often than not. Also, I like the idea of pinning near by squads to keep the wyches safe for a turn (pin squads that may assault while the wyches do their thing).

However, this brings up one question. If I drop the hellions, I have 183 points to send. Putting in a sixth DE squad and the 3 HFs, I have 68 points left to spend. Where should they go? I cant think of anything else to buy.

Well a warp beast squad with 5 beast and master is 75 points,  3 wyches on RJB and 2 blasters  95 and a Talos is 100, so all of those are good options if you want.  Warp beast squad make great charging units.  They can move 18" + fleet(which you should always do) in one turn assuming they charge.  Bring them out of the portal.  Once more they do not take up a force org slot, so that is great.

RJB's are great assault units vs T3 models, but lack punch vs T4 even with a succubi.  A talos is slow, but out of the portal it will serve you well.  It is a fire magnet and even its shooting isn't horrible.  OK it could be much better, but hey its our dreadnaught.

Replies to a mix of posts above sorry I didn't identify each poster separately.

>The DE Lord will run with the 9 man wych squad, and with the Webways, escallation shouldnt be an issue.

Unless of course the one wych squad with 9 doesn't arrive the same turn as the Lord...some fixes here would be make all the wych squads 9 so he can ride with any or give him a bike and just have him join one of the squads after they disembark.

Hellions are, IMO, a horrible unit.   You should ask yourself what role(s) you plan to fill for every unit you include.  What role are the hellions playing?  If you plan on using them for assault then Wyches are far superior and cheaper.  Warp beasts for that matter are better for the cost in assault.  If you plan to use them for shooting then Warriors/Raiders are better for the cost.  Hellions have a move bonus but since you are already going WWP the raiders give you more mobility than skyboards so they really are not needed.  You might opt for a small reaver squad with blasters (and *no* other upgrades) solely as mobile tank hunters but I am undecided if they're worth it yet myself.

>You may have the math on the bare minimum for HF's, but I don't know all the opponents you play, but guard that are
>close together(close order drills), deepstruck models, teleported(Necrons) and the like are vulnerable.
>...

No I did the math for you all the way down to LD6, nothing about "bare minimum" at all.  If you can target more than one then you just reduce the LD by 1 and you have roughly double the chance to pin in the example above so it will take you half the time so you'll pin a squad every other game on average.

>As I stated Dissies/HF is a much better option.

Using my example before you will *destroy* the squad before you pin it statistically with a DL.  I intentionally chose the weapon choice that was weaker vs my example to illustrate further how horrible horrorfexes are.  A dis will destroy a marine squad (my example) even faster.  So I don't understand what you are saying here, you are only reinforcing my point of view and undermining your own.

>Shoot the HF first, and then the dissie.  Trot out math all you want, I think they are useful and not a waste of points.

Why on earth would you ever do that?  You have to shoot them at the same target with all your weapons so you would fire the Dis first and hope to get the squad below half strenth to increase your chance to pin.  As for you "thinking" they are not a waste of points, it is a simple mathmatical fact that they are.  I have proven so above.  If you disagree I would very much like to hear rational reasoning backed up by facts.  You don't have to like it but a fact is a fact, horrorfexes are not worth the points.  (Side note: DL's are superior for your raiders, in the above list you have ravagers for disintegrators and the Raiders with DL's are your only mobile tank hunters...if you play vs indirect fire with plenty of terrain you are in deep deep trouble unless your Raiders have DLs.)

>I will likely puts the HF's in.

Don't do it, they are a waste of points...read my math above.  Under *ideal* circumstances (the Raiders not getting destroyed instantly heh) they still are a waste of points.

>If I drop the hellions, I have 183 points to send.

Depends what you are weak in, if you want tank hunters you can put in a small squad of Reaver bikes with blasters to go tank hunting.  Don't make the mistake of taking *any* assault upgrades thats just more wasted points on an already overcosted unit.  Personally as I said before I'd upgrade to an Archon for sure (extra wound, attack and ld for the cost of combat drugs is an easy choice).  Warp beasts are an ok choice.  Or you could consider switching to Wych cult and use 3 DL Warrior squads and use the rest of your points in Wych squads as troop choices.  You get a better HQ that way too who can have a wych retinue so you don't have to worry about the lord being split.  Talos is another good option as was mentioned.

In my experience with HF's I get to shoot them everygame and I pin atleast 1 or more per game and I have 2 of them in the army, so 10 points.  I pin first as many veterans would, because you likely will have more targets under the blast template than if you kill a few and then try.  If you are sure you can get them below half(misses happen, cover saves) and won't have much left to hit then sure.  But often a squad you are shooting at and trying to pin is near full str and you want it to sit out while your assault units are free to attack without counterattacks.   It is obvious our experiences vary wildely in who we play as I don't know what you are talking about always shooting the dissie first.  Opening up on a squad to take them below half does give you the extra -1to Leadership, but then you risk being out of range of the 18" HF and losing more models you could have had under the template.  Not only that but it speeds up the game.  You have the same number under the template for the HF and the dissie shot assuming they hit and can roll for the partials on the same shot.   I have not had them be a waste of points, and I think if you try them then you will see your math makes little sense in practice.  I stated that you did the minimum due to you only selecting one model hit.  In my games I get 2-3 which is more common than just one.  The blast template is over the base of the model, not the center of the model.  Partials being included or not swings it the numbers.  I take 2 in my all comers list and I have not been disappointed, they work well with my Wych units.  The raiders pop out of portals and if the wyches are short on the assault, pinning a unit close by means the wyches have a better survival chance.

Dissies/HF is ideal because of what you are shooting.  Tons of armor is ideal for DL's and I stated I don't take HF's on DL raiders.  My army has around 5-6 raiders on average and only 2 have dissies/HFf's.  He already had a large number of sniper squads with 2 DL's so the HF's on the dissie raiders is the best move, although 25 points is a lot, 10 as I use it is not a waste and only makes the Raider more useful with 2 weapons to shoot instead of one.  The Ravagers config I suggested to be 1 DL and 2 dissie and with the number of sniper squads he has plenty of anti armor. 

You are not a fan and think the HF is a lame duck, I get it.  You will have a game when the raider misses and gets blown down, and loses the 5 points.  But you get 2 shots with the raider instead of one, the chance to pin is a huge ability to have.  Try them in a few games and you will see in practice your math IS minimum.  You even stated that getting 2 guys will roughly double your chance to pin every other game LOL.  He has 5 in his army, if he hits with 3-4 then he will pin more than one per game.  Not only that, but he lessens the Raiders chances on being shot if he does pin not to mention the squads they dropped off.  You wave around your math which is a minimum of hitting one model, and state that if he gets 2 then it doubles his chances, excuse me?

Lets do a run down of what you said: 

"Drop the Horrorfexes. Do the math on how infrequently 1) you would use them and 2) they actually do anything and compare that to firing the DL on those raiders. Sure they're cheap at 5 points but those points add up, I count 25 points spent on them."

Wow, lets start with one.  How often you will use them?  Quite frankly is everytime you can.  Popping out of a portal is nigh a guarantee of everytime.  You are then with point 2, comparing DL to a horrorfex which quite simply is apples to oranges.  You would fire it and the DL or Dissie.  Your position is that you show mathematically if this happens with the bare minimum of one model hit, then it is nearly impossible to pin and then state that it would be good even if he could pin one unit every other game with no basis.  This is the definition of a strawman argument.  I glossed over you math saying I am not a mathmetician, but it was the worst scenario, and I went on to state that is was minimum, and addressed the fact with other situations such as close order drills, deepstriking etc that models are closer together and you will get more under the template quite easily.  You did not address that and simply said that your math is fact and you defeated my argument with your math. 

I challenge you to put the HF's in a situation in many games and see how they perform.  I have valid experiences over a large number of games.  It is rare that I do not get a pin in a game with just 2 HF's.  I agree that 25 is a large number of points to spend on them, especially combined with a DL which typically destroys armor.  I agree that a DL is not optimal to combine with a HF, but in fact killing one model with a DL and pinning is still not a bad option.  But, then the targeting of a enemy model instead of armor is poor targetting in your opinion.  If you have a DL/HF combo this is not ideal, but to take advantage of it, you must target models instead of armor to to use the HF.  This is not a waste of the DL shot, it is a tactical decision based on the armament of the Raider.  Sure shooting armor in my opinion is a priority in most situations, which is why I don't use a DL/HF combo, which is what I pointed out.

I love the HF and I think you will find many a general would take the chance of pinning for 5 points extra given the chance.  Our Raiders just happen to be paper cannons, but in a portal army as he has switched to on our combined advice, then they are very valid.

First off my appologies jesterzdragon, I have been discussing with you here from memory without consulting the codex.  Yes horrorfexes are defensive weapons, however, the codex explicitly states it may not be fired with other weapons.  Codex specific rules override general rules (defensive weapons) and hence you may not fire the horrorfex and the DL or Dis.  This renders the majority of your argument moot.

>In my experience with HF's I get to shoot them everygame and I pin atleast 1 or more per game and I have 2 of them in
>the army
Math doesn't lie, you can remember whatever you like but saying this is the equivalent of an Ork player not wanting to take choppas because "in his experience opponents playing marines fail their saves most of the time".  See how silly that sounds?  You cannot argue with math.  You might have a game where you pin every time you shoot the 'fex, that does not make it an intelligent choice.

>...the chance to pin is a huge ability to have.
By your logic then if I added an item that says roll 4d6 and if you roll all 4 6s you pin an enemy squad and it costs 50points and has a 6" range thats a "huge ability to have"?  You can't just take the ability in a vacuum you must look at what it costs you in points, restrictions, and changes in how you would play.

>Try them in a few games and you will see in practice your math IS minimum.
I have tried them in many games.  My math is not minimum as I included a wide range of LD values.  Are you not reading my entire post or something?

>You even stated that getting 2 guys will roughly double your chance to pin every other game LOL.
I also explicitly said I was referring to my example above.  In my original example you would pin ever 2.9 games...doubling that would be every 1.5 games.

>...if he hits with 3-4 then he will pin more than one per game.
In the example given the pin % was 5.6%...that was *after* to hit was taken into account.  At a 5.6% chance to pin per shot how do you translate that into more than one pin per game?  Please read the post before you reply to it.

>You wave around your math which is a minimum of hitting one model, and state that if he gets 2 then it doubles his
>chances, excuse me?
You have obviously not read my post.  If your chance to pin a marine squad is 5.6% and you hit 2 models they get a -1, the chance there (if you look above) is 11.1%...that is roughly double his chance to pin. 

>Wow, lets start with one.  How often you will use them?  Quite frankly is everytime you can. 
18" range, your raider will almost always be destroyed when it is within 18" of the opponent.  You very very rarely get 2 shots off with a horrorfex in a game.  (Mind you see my comment about horrorfexes rules at the top of this post, you won't ever choose to shoot a horrorfex over a DL/Dis when you follow the rules and can only shoot one.)

>I glossed over you math saying I am not a mathmetician, but it was the worst scenario, and I went on to state that is
>was minimum, and addressed the fact with other situations such as close order drills, deepstriking etc that models
>are closer together and you will get more under the template quite easily.  You did not address that and simply said
>that your math is fact and you defeated my argument with your math.
Look at my post above where I list %s down to LD6.  Just move down the list as other factors accumulate.  I accounted for all of that. 

Your responses have included opinion and no facts.  Your responses have indicated a lack of understanding of the rules (mine as well and I appologized for not reading the codex already!).  Your responses have shown no effort to actually read what you are responding to.  I would be happy to continue this discussion if you are willing to stop stating your opinions as facts and actually back them up with something.

To the original poster.  Read the rules I have mentioned, look at the math I have laid out for you.  Its clear that horrorfexes are trash even at the cheap cost of 5 points.

Just a quick note on the HQ, he needs to be an archon, and whatever happens, the fact that he is with the wych squad is of little consequence.

more often than not, he should be running alone, only using the wyches as a free taxi the turn they get out of the portal. with drugs, it gives him a charge range of 12"+2"+D6"+12", rolling 3 dices in difficult terrain (cause he's an IC), ensuring a "1st" turn charge with a ridiculous range of 27-32".

his role should be to tie up infantry squads/large beasts so they dont shoot/assault and kill your raiders or exposed squads, eventually killing them (6 attacks on the charge, strikes first, hitting on 3 most of the time, rerolling misses, wounding on 4+ no saves...all this with a 2+ invul. save)

also remember with wych squads, you want to be careful not to anihilate your ennemy when you charge : you want them to survive, stay in CC and kill them on your ennemy's turn. nothing dies quicker to shooting than a squad of wyches (even guards have better saves !) in my experience, i found that 8 (incl. succubi) is a good number, and this also ensures that the archon has a seat in his cab when he arrives via webway.

whitout getting in the much heated debate about HF, i just want to point out that math hammer isn't always the solution as cold, hard math often fails on the battlefield. as for HF, never used them as i always found out better places to spend my points (like warriors).

related to this last remark, always bear in mind that DE in general die a lot, and fast. so you want to be careful in objective games with small units that become non-scoring real quick (killing 5 DE warriors is more than easy).

well that was my 2 cents. am i wrong ?

While I have used my opinion, I have also used fact that I have used them over a large number of games and they work on Marines and other LD 10 armies.  Opponents vary and thus our experiences could be vary wildly which I have stated.  Fire lines and spreading out vs dark eldar is not something many opponents do.  We have large template weapons to fear, so even after multiple games versus the same opponents they do not spread out. 

The FAQ for DE from GW specifically states at the begginning how to use the FAQ.  It states that the codex DE is is pre 4th edition and these changes are to use the codex with the update in conjuction with 4th Edition rules.  Now draw your conclusions.  I am on several boards, the DE mailing list and it has been debated to the fact that you may fire it as a defensive weapon in addition to the main weapon.  Pre 4th Edition I would agree that it was only worthwhile on rare occasions if your other weapon was destroyed or you wanted the chance to pin.  The spirit of the rule is clear, it is a defensive weapon.  What is the purpose of making it a defensive weapon if you cannot fire it in addition to the main weapon?  It was already wargear so it could not be destroyed, so making it defensive has no real effect if you cannot fire it with a main weapon.

We are starting to see a bit more eye to eye, however I fear that you are overstating and I am posturing in reguard to make our point.  We both agree 25 points on them is too much, but we won't ever see the same idea that they are more or less effective if we dissent on the point above.

I hope in the new codex that they are working on it is cleared up and not simply dropped.  I feel that 5 points for the chance to pin is worthwhile.  I think you'd agree if you would come to terms with it being fire in addition to.  50 points is exaggerating to make your point and I will not take the bait.  I have read your entire posts, I know the rules and the math you have laid out.  I am stating that on average I will get 2-3 models sometimes even more.  That is atleast a -1 everytime, and for 5 points that you get to shoot everygame it is worth it.

Now if I am mistaken and many other DE players then I will state that the wargear as written even with the update is worthless.  It has no real use except for filling up points.  However my stance is firm, and in tournaments it is allowed just like the Wargear book allows for the Reaver Jet Bikes to assault the 6" like Eldar jetbikes even if not in range.  I can only play the way I feel fits my style and what the rules mean.  I nod to your math and only wish to discuss it further if you have a good reason it is a defensive weapon which in many opinions and judges overrides the pre 4th edition codex.

/prays for a great new Codex and cool new minis.

I would lose the stinger and take a destructor on the haemonculus. The destructor might allow you to make some points back on the haemonculi. It is actually quite a powerful weapon if used properly. The odds are 50% that is will negate power armor and the template means auto hit. It does cost 15 points but if you drop the stingers and scissorhands it is only 5 more points.