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I've been searching through the advice given for all-infantry guard armies, and this is what I came up with.  I took Drop Troops and Close Order Drill because they are free, not necessarily becaue I plan to use them often.  The command squads are designed to stay hidden and provide a leadership bubble unless an enemy unit reaches my lines, at which point they move up and add some extra weight with rapid-fire plasma guns.  I'm pretty happy with the firepower this army has, but I'd like to see what people think.  Right now it has 10 Heavy Bolters, 12 Lascannons, 6 Autocannons, 10 Flamers, and 15 Plasma Guns.

Cadian 501st

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">(1750 Points)[/b]<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">  Model Count: 156 [/b]

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Doctrines:  [/b]Iron Discipline, Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, and Heavy Weapon Platoons.

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Command Platoon (512 Points): [/b]

Command Squad (102 Points)

                Junior Officer with Iron Discipline, Boltgun Honorifica Imperialis and Frag Grenades.  1 Veteran with Standard and Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Plasma Guns.

Anti-Tank Support Squad (110 Points)

                3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Lascannon.

Anti-Tank Support Squad (110 Points)

                3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Lascannon.

Fire Support Squad (95 Points)

                3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.

Fire Support Squad (95 Points)

                3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.

 

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Infantry Platoon (466 Points): [/b]

Command Squad (86 Points)

                Junior Officer with Iron Discipline and Boltgun.  4 Cadians with Plasma Guns.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

 

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Infantry Platoon (466 Points): [/b]

Command Squad (86 Points)

                Junior Officer with Iron Discipline and Boltgun.  4 Cadians with Plasma Guns.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (76 Points)

                8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

 

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Heavy Weapons Platoon (306 Points): [/b]

Command Squad (86 Points)

                Junior Officer with Iron Discipline and Boltgun.  4 Cadians with Plasma Guns.

Anti-Tank Support Squad (110 Points)

                3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Lascannon.

Anti-Tank Support Squad (110 Points)

                3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Lascannon.

Lots of heavy weapons and specials? CHECK
NO Missile or Grenade launchers? CHECK
Lots of troopers? CHECK
No wasteful wargear? CHECK

I only have 2 suggestions.

1) Find some points to add a Flag to the CHQ.

2a) Vet doctrine and 2 Vet squads- I would make the assumption that you would utilize a standard gunline anchored by your CHQ and 2 PHQs providing leadership. The Vet squads would help when you come up against those pesky Indirect shooters. Their infil ability might also come in quite handy in some scenarios. To do this, I would drop one squad from each platoon. While you would lose 2 HBs and 2 Flamers, you'd gain 6 PG's at BS 4.

2b) Special Weapon Squad Doctrine and 2 SWS with x2 Melta and a Demo. Same reason as Vets. I'd get the points for them from the same place and move 1 of your CHQ LC squads to the HW PHQ.



You've avoided the usual pitfalls of the IG dex such as crappy unit selections and wargear and you've got plenty of bodies.

If you must have heavy weapons squads (which are now much easier to target) I would put the HBs in them, and the Lascannons in the line squads. You do not want your anti-tank that concentrated and easy to take out.

Valid point Happy A. Though I don't think he should put all of his LCs into line squads. The line squads offer ablative wounds, but the AT sqd offers 3 shots from a single unit. Better chances to take out the armor with the AT sqd. Maybe switch out 1 AT sqd to an AP sqd with HBs and put those 3 LCs into the line. Then again, I don't think he needs to be too concerned about the enemy wiping out 4 AT sqds in cover.

Posted By Flagg07 on 02/08/2007 6:06 PM
Valid point Happy A. Though I don't think he should put all of his LCs into line squads. The line squads offer ablative wounds, but the AT sqd offers 3 shots from a single unit. Better chances to take out the armor with the AT sqd.

I'm not sure why you think that three lascannons in three line squads has a different chance to take out armour from three lascannons in a single anti-tank squad.

It's fairly similar to my IG gunline list, so I can't critique too much, but I'll add a few thoughts:

1- I agree with moving some of the lascannons to the line squads. As is, all your AT is concentrated in 4 units. Could cause problems with a savvy enemy (Tau using a few submunitions and SMS shots, tyranid barbed stranglers, etc)

2- I also agree you need some form of indirect fire. I don't know if you intend to drop your platoon HQs in...if so, you might as well drop the ID. If not, veterans are the way to go. I use three vets squads and 2 basilisks. If you can put a lot of indirect fire on the enemy, you prevent him from safely hiding from your guns, and provide powerful fire that can go anywhere to help protect your troops, because they're too slow to really react to threats.

3- Why the flamers on the line squads? With all your long range fire, they don't seem to synergize well. Maybe it's just my hatred of flamers, but I think you can find better uses for those points...like a company standard.

4- You'll obviously have problems moving the army anywhere, so objectives will be a problem. Not that this should be a surprise, but just a reminder. The few times I've fought armies like this with my Tau, I've always been very cautious...picking away a few guys at a time and hiding everything else. Not much action, and low margins of victory for me, but rather frustrating for both players.

5- Can you even deploy this many guys into a corner effectively for, say, cleanse? It might be worth considering dropping a few points somewhere to buy several squads light infantry. You can infiltrate then, reducing the congestion of your troops, helping secure objectives/quarters, and preventing the enemy from hiding behind terrain around your main body.

Just a few ideas.

I'd add some rough riders for counter charging those nasties that get too close like demonbombs or flyrants two cheap units will usually do the trick. Or you could bring a quagmire of bodies called a conscript platoon with flamers to tie down your opponent's cc units.

Posted By Buoyancy on 02/08/2007 8:04 PM

Posted By Flagg07 on 02/08/2007 6:06 PM
Valid point Happy A. Though I don't think he should put all of his LCs into line squads. The line squads offer ablative wounds, but the AT sqd offers 3 shots from a single unit. Better chances to take out the armor with the AT sqd.

I'm not sure why you think that three lascannons in three line squads has a different chance to take out armour from three lascannons in a single anti-tank squad.

AT sqd with 3 LC @110: Generally speaking, all 3 guns are in range and LOS. 1 unit firing.

3 Inf sqds with 1 LC/ PG @285 points: Between 30 troops, all 3 guns might not be in Range and/or LOS. 3 separate units firing at 1 target. If they fail to make a traget priority check they are 1/3 less likely to kill the vehicle. Accompanying special weapons might not be in Range and/or LOS 

In a perfect world, you are right, 3 LC have the same chance as 3 LC. In the real world, where there are other factors, the AT squad is more effective and cost efficient.

Watch out for FoD. With that many squads in close unision, the 12" from a drop pod librarian will force a lot of checks. Even with a banner and LD9, you will lose several squads. Find a way to put a psychic hood in there.

Well another way to get 10 hvy bolters would be to get a heavy weapon platoon with all heavy bolters.
It will run you 80*3=240+50=290

So 10 heavy bolters costs you 290 points vs. 932 points. Granted 290 will only give you 23 troops vs. 110 but its less than 1/3 the price so it makes sense. I have pretty much accepted that lasguns dont do anything, so those extra 80 lasguns probably wont really do much so in essence they are a waste of points.

just an idea.

Posted By Flagg07 on 02/21/2007 7:42 AM

Posted By Buoyancy on 02/08/2007 8:04 PM

Posted By Flagg07 on 02/08/2007 6:06 PM
Valid point Happy A. Though I don't think he should put all of his LCs into line squads. The line squads offer ablative wounds, but the AT sqd offers 3 shots from a single unit. Better chances to take out the armor with the AT sqd.

I'm not sure why you think that three lascannons in three line squads has a different chance to take out armour from three lascannons in a single anti-tank squad.

AT sqd with 3 LC @110: Generally speaking, all 3 guns are in range and LOS. 1 unit firing.

3 Inf sqds with 1 LC/ PG @285 points: Between 30 troops, all 3 guns might not be in Range and/or LOS. 3 separate units firing at 1 target. If they fail to make a traget priority check they are 1/3 less likely to kill the vehicle. Accompanying special weapons might not be in Range and/or LOS 

In a perfect world, you are right, 3 LC have the same chance as 3 LC. In the real world, where there are other factors, the AT squad is more effective and cost efficient.

One small in-game factor neglected in this analysis: wounds required to affect AT fire of AT squad: 4. Wounds required to affect AT fire of line squad: 8. Likelihood of wounds being inflicted on troops with T3 and 5+ save: high. Also, the concentration means a single failed target priority check stops ALL of them from shooting, and a vehicle has 1/3 as many squads to avoid. Taking multiple AT squads somewhat reduces their vulnerability due to target overload, but average squads lose a fair bit of flexibility - las/plas is better than HB/flamer against all targets save hordes, against whom one of the weapons will be moot most of the time. (at 12-14", you have to decide between whether to move up to use the flamer or hang back and use the bolter) Then there is the small chance of an AT squad inflicting "overkill" on a lighter vehicle - another two lasblasts are moot once a Chimera or Trukk has been reduced to a smoking wreck - whereas infantry can wait to see if their friends destroy or incapacitate a given target before deciding where to focus their attention.

I concur the weakness of AT squads is probably less than I personally usually make it out to be, since most competent list writers will take significant redundancy, but I doubt you can really say an AT squad is THAT much better against vehicles than the equivalent number of LCs split between infantry. Against a shooty list, I would actually rank the AT squad as WORSE, for obvious reasons. (Griffons, Basilisks, Land Speeders, etc.)

It's really down to personal experience and the sorts of opponents one faces, but my advice for this list is exactly the same as that of Happy Anarchist. I'd even say that the positions of the plasma and flamers should be reversed - more ablative wounds for the better weapon, more flexibility for the line squads, and makes the PHQs into pseudo-counterassault units. Does an overheat hurt a ten-man squad or a five-man squad - shielding an LD bubble - more?

Focussed AT fire can work well in many situations - if your six-man squad are MEQs. GEQs have to work around their own squishiness.

Personally, I wouldn't take any AT Squads, because they're so delicate and easily wiped out with template weaponry. Flagg07 isn't really concerned about Pieplates or ablative wounds on 75pts worth of weaponry; I'd be a bit more nervous than that. For the same points, you could get a Lascannon/Plasma Squad in your army, with some leftover pooints, adding 10 more models, and the same number of high S/low AP shots within rapid fire range as you'd get with your AT squad. Fire support squads aren't points efficient; the Autocannons are cheaper elsewhere in the army. Again, you could add two Autocannon/Plasma Gun squads instead of those, and they'd be much less delicate and perform almost ( not quite ) the same function as transport hunters/medium infantry killers. If you threw in some deepstriking Veterans or Stormtroopers ( definitely the Vets, unless you're looking for coolness, in which case Kasrkins can't be beat! ) for tank hunting, you could probably knock out just about all opposing Heavy Support with all that melta/plasma if you got at least decent rolls. Well, maybe not Tau or Necron, but there are always exceptions.


If you're still set on taking your AT squads at least ( I'd still lose the FS squads ), I'd give them the Sharpshooter doctrine so they'll gain 8% more accuracy is it? Something like that.


If you're going all infantry, special weapon squads are still garbage IMO - you get what, one ordinance shot and two meltaguns at BS3 for X points?


My guess is you'll also have leadership problems with so many models, since I'm not sure if even three 12" Officer bubbles could cover all those troops! Maybe break them down into three platoons?


Also, it's worth keeping in mind that since you've packed 98pts into your T3 single-wound model command squads, they are DEFINITELY going to be pieplate targets because they're so easy to kill for their VPs, and because they'll cripple your leadership. One good shot from a Leman Russ or a Hammerhead and they're gonna be hurting.

Cool list, btw. I love hoarde gaurd, it is so much fun when your shooting phase rolls around!

Anyway, good list on the whole, but my only critiques:

Any fast, fearless assault army will be the bane of your existance. A squad of witches in a raider will run through your whole gunline.

You can get a lot of use out of a big conscript platoon with an attacthed, naked commisar. the big unit can move forward to block charges, it can also grab and sit on objectives and absorb fire from failed target priority checks.

Also, if you face drop pods, the sheer amount of space they can take up can give you a huge buffer zone. You can castle in a corner and then spread out the conscripts to force pods to land over 12" away from your gun line.

the poor conscripts are highly useful in this type of army. Assume that if you face a fast fearless assault army, they will get the charge on you. so you need a unit to absorb that charge and tar pit your opponant in order to keep your guns firing.


Also, an inquisitor with 3 mystics, psychic hood and emperor's tarot will be an awesome tool for you. The pyschic hood to counter libbys and eldar, the mystics for deepstrikers, and the emperor's tarrot to help you go first, which is VERY important with this kind of army. plus, he is fairly cheap equiped like that.

Also, you could take a calidus assasin to strike hidden targets and enemy shooting units. As everyone knows, she is a fantastic tool.



Other than that, you really should take something to hit hidden or very distant targets, otherwise units with a very long range, that can fire indirectly or can JSJ, will take you for the easy win.

Hope that helps, and good luck! I love IG.

Any time I make a list, I try to stop and think about what I might be facing. If you stop and think about what you might face at your store. That in turn will give you a better understanding of what you might need for your army.

An assault heavy army that is fearless is going to run past your ap guns and into your ranks. Once they are in your ranks, I just dont see them stopping. Option to slow the assault is your sentinels. Lone sets work really well for this role. 34 hormaguants sitting around one sentinel seems kinda funny. I have heard so many stories about the lone sent removing a key part of the other person army from play for four turns.

I could go on and on about options, then again that would remove the best part of the game for you. Re-tooling your list for the next match up.

Guy always talked about how strong his army was. One assassion removed three wraight lord from the game. So, when you face something you have yet to see, that will be your downfall.

If you do go with lascannon, I would go with a five man vet unit with a lascannon. That unit has a lot of option and BS of four.

Another thing to think of is key placement. I dont know how many times I have assaults and hit two or three units at one time. That way a big chunck of his los was removed from his next turn.  If you are a shooty army, that hurts big time......

 

Best of luck and hope your find what you need to enjoy the game