Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

To parallel the discussion in the 'Ravenwing' thread (and draw away the hatas and playa-hatas from derailing that discussion), I thought I'd post this thread by old Dakka-ite and LONGTIME Deathwing Player from the AWC forums. He's seen and has the DA codex and has clearly put a lot of thought into the discussion.

You'll see my comments on the bottom, so I won't bore you here with a rehash, but I thought it was an interesting tactical assessment.

I hadnt paid much attention to the thread, but I can see what you mean, Yair.

Posted By The Drop Zone on 02/09/2007 9:55 PM
not only that but you can now add an apothecary once you use the motr
that would help bikes stay alive much longer!!!!

woo hoo got my advanced copy today im loving it

and for the love of god stop saying the deathwing is unplayable... my god you act as if the no 2 assault cannon rule kills your army use some tactics for god's sake

Robert, it really isnt a simple lack of a second heavy weapon. it is a myriad of things that DW players have come to use that has been removed. I posted what I thought on AWC in the thread SYR linked to.

I think many people who ACTUALLY PLAY DW will tell you that it is not an easy army to win with in the first place. Now with all the changes, the dropping of the second heavy weapon (not just the assault cannon) is the slap across the face of people who have been faithfully playing this army for years. Your flippant all encompassing reccomendation is hardly shedding the light of truth for us to see.
Yes, finally use some tactics, Thats just great Robert. Ever think that was what we were doing before? I dont think DW players have  just been showing up to the table and bullying people with an army thats difficult to win with.

Please keep the tone civil, Robert. Its hard to promote your company as much as I do when you speak in such ways. It makes me second guess my decision.

What would have saved them for me would have been the ability to assault upon deep striking. I suppose you could do something similar with ravenwing 'deathwing-bomb'.

1. Pre-turn 1: Ravenwing bikes scout into position
2. Turn 1: turbo-boost full amount. Termies show up on time, on target, at once, shoot whatever they can. Then suck up the shooting and hope they're out of assault range (though the odds of this are pretty slim)
3. Turn 2: Move up, shoot and assault with whatever's left. Since bikes and termies are 'stable platforms', that does mean the ability to shoot a full payload and still assault. Fists on the bike sgts, LCs on the Termie Sgts (and possibly to replace the PFs on the regular termies? Not sure if giving up all the fists is the right idea, but could have its advantages). Again, hope to either stay locked in combat or be able to 'victory jig' into another unit after assault and lock there.
4. Repeat step 3. Hope your tornados and MM bikes (you did take 6 bikes per squad for your FA, right?) can handle any flankers or stray nudniks.

What gives this approach fits? Tyranids. Other deep-strike heavy armies (drop pod marines). Castling Sisters. Necrons. SAFH Marines. Daemon bomb.

What's so different about that? Because you've got a lower model count, and most optimized armies are tooled up with plasma to the hilt (or have rending, or some other way to ignore that oh-so-common 3+ save), and because said models are a weird mix of very fast and VERY slow, you could end up outmaneuvered and outgunned fast.

Having said that, I think this list might have a chance against mech tau and might do okay against mech eldar, especially if you can find ways to tie up the counter-assault elements (i.e. Shining Spears). Guard is a real toss-up; a good player might not have the room with SAFH guard to keep his army enough away from assaulting bikes and termies, but those units are going to be awfully vulnerable in that first round volley of shooting. And that's assuming NO counter-assault element (Rough Riders, SWS with flamers/demo charge, allied Seraphim, etc.).

So, is Deathwing rendered completely useless? Not exactly, but it already had competitiveness issues, and this is going to hamstring it further. We're not into Thousand Sons territory yet, but we're close, more like footslogging ork.

I have kicked around the idea of a "Deathwing" Bomb ever since I heard about some of the rumors from Warseer awhile back. I was thinking about something along the follwoing lines:

HQ:
Master of Ravenwing 205pts

Elites: 735pts
Terminator Squad, 1xAssault Cannon
245pts

Terminator Squad, 1xAssault Cannon
245pts

Terminator Squad, 1xAssault Cannon
245pts

Troops:
Bike Attack Squad, 6 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike with Multi-Melta,
Land Speeder Typhoon
350pts

Bike Attack Squad, 6 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike with Multi-Melta,
Land Speeder Typhoon
350pts

This is around 1640pts...I'd probably cut the Bike units down to squeeze the list to 1500pts, which is what I typically play. Overall I think the list has potential. Can the standard codex do this list, maybe even better?? Most likely yes it can, but I still think it has some awsome potential.

@Syr8766:

Have you read my mind?? That is what I have been thinking about all along! Deploy bikes, scout move ahead, turbo forward, Deathwing Assault half the squads, Teleport homer the rest, shoot, assault, wash, rinse and repeat!

Anyway, I am an optimist and I am hoping that this build will work, it's the one I am planning on and as soon as I have the parts and pieces (and the codex) I'll try it out and let you guys know if it works

Thanks
Chappy P!

Actually, deathwing would make a nasty pod list. I just noticed that Dark Angels can assault out of a drop pod. With all the lightning claws, it's nasty.

Skyth, it's really a dumb idea to make such statements without being absolutely certain.

Go back to the thread in You Make The Call. There is absolutely no way that you can convince anyone that a squad can assault out of a pod the turn it Deep Strikes.

Posted By Hellfury on 02/10/2007 12:04 PM
I hadnt paid much attention to the thread, but I can see what you mean, Yair.

Posted By The Drop Zone on 02/09/2007 9:55 PM
not only that but you can now add an apothecary once you use the motr
that would help bikes stay alive much longer!!!!

woo hoo got my advanced copy today im loving it

and for the love of god stop saying the deathwing is unplayable... my god you act as if the no 2 assault cannon rule kills your army use some tactics for god's sake

Robert, it really isnt a simple lack of a second heavy weapon. it is a myriad of things that DW players have come to use that has been removed. I posted what I thought on AWC in the thread SYR linked to.

I think many people who ACTUALLY PLAY DW will tell you that it is not an easy army to win with in the first place. Now with all the changes, the dropping of the second heavy weapon (not just the assault cannon) is the slap across the face of people who have been faithfully playing this army for years. Your flippant all encompassing reccomendation is hardly shedding the light of truth for us to see.
Yes, finally use some tactics, Thats just great Robert. Ever think that was what we were doing before? I dont think DW players have  just been showing up to the table and bullying people with an army thats difficult to win with.

Please keep the tone civil, Robert. Its hard to promote your company as much as I do when you speak in such ways. It makes me second guess my decision.

Helfury you know i appreciate your support.. that being said, my opinions on game play is one thing but when people continue to make ill informed comments they deserve to be responded too

the dw is not unplayable now. the rules change, people hate change

the rules are not that big of a stretch.. one heavy weapon isnt that big of a factor

adding apothecaries in termie armor is a nice add on

allowing asssault weapons in squads is a great thing more than makes up for the loss of a heavy

being allowed to deep strike some on turn one is also a great add on

the new rules do call for a change in tactitcs the all dw army will need to be developed with the addition of ravenwing squads it makes a new an exciting factor

"allowing asssault weapons in squads is a great thing more than makes up for the loss of a heavy"

How did you reach this conclusion?

My first impression is that they're a lot less effective at range. They already have trouble getting into assault against mobile armies unless you buy an expensive Land Raider for them. Besides, that's more than 1/3 of your army invested in most games.

I also find that 90% of the time my Terminators win in an assault with the default Stormbolter and Powerfist. The assault weapons will help in marginal cases, but I don't see them really being of much extra use in cutting up Guardsmen, Tau or opposing Las/Plas squads.

How do you plan to utilize your Termies so that the assault weapons make up for losing the heavy? Transport? Deep Strike?

This is all theoryhammer, but I'm just not seeing how the change makes them generally more effective on the tabletop.

I have been a DA player since I started playing 40k, back in the mid 90's.... and I am sure this is shorter than many of you die hards who have prolly been around since way back with like 1st edition.  But I can honestly say that I will prolly try it out, I mean what the heck, it is a new spin on both styles of army.  In the end a real tried and true DA player is gonna take whatever GW slings at us and come out with a grin on their face, and find a nice damned way of making the rules work for them.  So I say we all stop going on about "this won't work" and "this sucks now", and start bouncing some idea's about how to make it kick some ass.  Soon as I get the codex I am going to sit down and pound out trial army lists over and over and play test any that seem viable.  So c'mon if Caliban blowing up and half their legion falling to chaos couldn't stop the DA why should a few rules changes
Aztralwolf

Posted By syr8766 on 02/10/2007 12:23 PM
What would have saved them for me would have been the ability to assault upon deep striking. I suppose you could do something similar with ravenwing 'deathwing-bomb'.

1. Pre-turn 1: Ravenwing bikes scout into position
2. Turn 1: turbo-boost full amount. Termies show up on time, on target, at once, shoot whatever they can. Then suck up the shooting and hope they're out of assault range (though the odds of this are pretty slim)

Point two is where you start to get wrong.. you must deepstrike before the bikes turbo boost, so basically DW terminators will just get and aditional 18" move because of the bikes (12" scout + 6" teleport homer) That is non taking terrain into account because if you don't get first turn the bikes wil have to stay behind some terrain to not get shot.... so basically terminators may be on time but definately tehy won't be on target.

Posted By skyth on 02/10/2007 6:29 PM
Actually, deathwing would make a nasty pod list. I just noticed that Dark Angels can assault out of a drop pod. With all the lightning claws, it's nasty.

IF (and I say 'if') that turns out to be the case, it would be a huge improvement for Deathwing-bomb. The ability to show up, shoot the AC (or whatever) and assault on first turn would be huge and might make the ravenwing/deathwing thing truly viable. A one-trick pony for sure, but a nice trick.   

i played my DW at 1850 with the new dex rules today. while my DW list is not nearly as affected as my other DAs armies it has gone from difficult to win with to even more difficult to win with- the loss of the second heavy wepaon does hurt, not me as much since ididn't run as many but what really makes it harder is when little things start piling up

.no teleport homers+no vetran skills+no HQ of your choice+no second heavy weapon=additional major handicap for an army that is already small and pricey.

Posted By The Drop Zone on 02/10/2007 7:52 PM
that being said, my opinions on game play is one thing but when people continue to make ill informed comments they deserve to be responded too

Likewise.