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OK... I would like to settle some arguments in my gaming group.  As I cannot find all the right passages in the rules to quote for them to shut them up, I would appreciate if you guys could tell me where to find the exact answers.

1.  When firing from elevation do you a) angle the tape measure down/up at your targets or do you b) keep it straight and use another measuring device to see over where or how far the shot can fall.

2. What is the exact list of what constitutes a massacre? Is it whenever you destroy a squad totally, when you destroy a squad totally on the FIRST turn of CC, when you out initiative a running squad and slaughter them all, or some combination of those options?

3. And on a lighter note... should someone throw a hissy fit if you measure shots that are OBVIOUSLY within range just to assure that you can assault the squad you want, even if that guy does as he is supposed to and fires at least one weapon since he measured?   I hate people that spaz about the little things lol.
Aztralwolf

1) Page 6 of the rulebook ( under "Bases" ). Measurement is made from the base/body/hull of the firing model to the base/body/hull of the target. So you'd be measuring at an angle if the firer and target were at different elevations. This situation is also further clarified by the Cities of Death rules if you're playing a game with those rules.


2) A massacre (according to page 43 of the rulebook) is when one side destroys the enemy [in close combat]. So the answer to your question would be: all of the situations you describe.


3) The rules require you to check range to your target when firing. Whether or not something is "obviously" within range is purely subjective. That said, by the rules you should only be measuring enough to ensure that your models are in range. Extraneous measuring (beyond the range of your weapons, for example) would be, in effect cheating and certainly poor sportsmanship.

In other words, it's fine to check range for your weapons and if, on the way, you notice that your unit is within assualt range, that's definitely not breaking the rules. But measuring beyond the range of your weapons to get other distances would most certainly be a form of cheating.

That said, using your shooting range to help determine assualt range will also often be seen as poor sportsmanship by other players, but it's a matter of personal taste rather than a case of what the rules allow  or don't allow.

Thank you VERY VERY much Yak.  This will make the game session so much easier next time when they start arguing between each other about things like this and I can point to a page to shut them up.   Seriously on number three, a guy in my group measured for a storm bolter that was obviously in range just to check assault, the other guy started spazing and throwing dice and saying that was illegal and blah blah blah.  I understood where he was coming from but how do you complain about someones sportsmanship and then start acting like a 3 year old infront of other players.
Aztralwolf

  I'm a little confused on point 3 - measuring shooting to determine if a unit can assault.

  You're in the shooting phase, so you're done moving the unit.  You're measuring for shooting, so you've declared the unit is shooting, which means the unit can't fleet (if it had the option).  Since you're measuring, the unit has already declared what unit it is shooting at - that means it's the only unit it can possibly assault.  When you declare the shooting, you have to declare what weapons are firing and in what mode (heavies, pistols 1 or 2 shot, etc...), so you've already decided if the unit is going to even have the option of assaulting.

  It seems to me that the shooting unit has only one option - to assault the unit it's shooting at.  After the shooting is resolved, the player will declare the assault, and then measure - if the assault is too far away, then the unit stays where it is.  There's nothing the player can do to affect the outcome at all, so who cares if he measures it a little early? 

  Actually, the only thing I can see it possibly benefitting is the defending player:  if the shooting player measures, the defender can see how many of his models are in assault range, and thus knows how he can remove casualties to either move the assault out of range or maximize the number of his models involved in the assault.

The point was that the guy wasnt sure if he was within range to assault, so basically he measured for his stormbolters to see how far he actually was away from the squad he wanted to assault.
Aztralwolf

Posted By pinhead on 02/13/2007 5:29 AM

  I'm a little confused on point 3 - measuring shooting to determine if a unit can assault.

  You're in the shooting phase, so you're done moving the unit.  You're measuring for shooting, so you've declared the unit is shooting, which means the unit can't fleet (if it had the option).  Since you're measuring, the unit has already declared what unit it is shooting at - that means it's the only unit it can possibly assault.  When you declare the shooting, you have to declare what weapons are firing and in what mode (heavies, pistols 1 or 2 shot, etc...), so you've already decided if the unit is going to even have the option of assaulting.

  It seems to me that the shooting unit has only one option - to assault the unit it's shooting at.  After the shooting is resolved, the player will declare the assault, and then measure - if the assault is too far away, then the unit stays where it is.  There's nothing the player can do to affect the outcome at all, so who cares if he measures it a little early? 

  Actually, the only thing I can see it possibly benefitting is the defending player:  if the shooting player measures, the defender can see how many of his models are in assault range, and thus knows how he can remove casualties to either move the assault out of range or maximize the number of his models involved in the assault.

You have to think outside the box, man! 


What you say would be true if the firing player only had one unit he was firing. However, by accidentally noticing the assault range for a firing unit, the player can make the decision to not fire on that enemy unit with any of their other firing units for the turn.

Alternatively, If the unit is already out of charge range, well then the rest of the army can feel free to open-up on the enemy unit.


Also, it can be used the opposite way: to determine if the enemy unit is going to be within charge range on their next turn (i.e. within 12" of a normal infantry unit). This is a huge deal because if they are within 12" they become a massive target priority, wheras if they aren't within 12" they can effectively be ignored for another turn in lieu of firing at more juicy targets.


All said and done, "checking range" while checking range is very valuable information whether you think it is good sportsmanship or not.


For me, I think its impossible to stop. . .if someone is checking range to a target is there really any way to stop them from also seeing if the unit is going to be within charge range also? Not really. So IMO it becomes a part of the game and you just deal with it.

Measuring beyond the range of your weapons would be one thing, but noticing the charge range of a unit while measuring shooting range is just one of the little rules 'hiccups' that occurs with a measurement based game.

Ah, now I see what you're getting at - thanks.

I wish you declared all your shots first, then resovled them, but that's for another thread...

Well I mean, honestly, a storm bolter has a range of 24", and I guess I could see someone getting upset if you were only say 7 or 8 inches away (which looks alot like 5 or 6) and then said, oh well let me check if my storm bolter has range. Wink wink.

I think thats what was being referred to.

I don't understand the throwing dice part though. Thats just lame.

This is the exact reason I have switched to measuring sticks. 24, 18, 12 and 6" sticks can be very effectivly used. It is a lot quicker than going for the tape, and they slide nicly in with my books. The sticks are not sub-marked, i.e. if I want to measure 18" I have to use the 18" stick, I can't use the 18" mark on the 24".

#3 is, fundamentally, a group convention thing. While rules exist for it, it's mostly something that you should agree upon with your group and just do it that way.

My normal group plays "checking range" as just measuring straight up, and as such measuring the range between a unit and a target enemy unit is a valid use of a shooting phase -- even if you're attempting to fire pistols at a unit on the other end of the board. Just pick an objective rule and go with it.