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Fire Warriors don't get a lot of love... and seeing as how other, harder units can do their job better, I'm not surprised! so how could Fire Warriors be tweaked to claw back some of the points that get shoveled into Hammerheads, Kroot and Crisis Suits?

I think something could be done with the arms and wargear that Fire Warriors have access to. Their role is a dedicated shooty unit (either mobile or static), but their competitors do either more shots (Stealth suits), do it harder (Crisis Suits/Hammerheads) or do it cheaper (Kroot!). What about changing the pulse rifle to Heavy 2? Pulse rifles are supposed to emphasise range, but they seem to be better employed up close and Rapid Fire personal. Switching to Heavy 2 means there is no special bonus to getting up close, and puts pulse-rifle armed Fire Warriors into the role of firebase. Verses MEQ, a 12-man team without markerlights kill 3 as opposed to 1, and each markerlight hit boosts that killage by 1. Verses GEQ, a 12-man team will kill 10 without markerlights, which is heavy. However, balanced against that is the fact the unit is locked in place. On Napoleonic era boards with lots of clear fields of fire, Heavy 2 is bad. On a board with a decent amount of terrain, Heavy 2 pulse rifles encourages manovre (sp.) and speed to get within small arms range, as Fire Warrirors are quite vulnerable to small arms.

I'd advocate the Pulse Carbine becoming Assault 2as well, but with some reservation. Although a Carbine armed team with Devilfish will cost 200+, the flexibility of a Carbine over a Rifle, combined with the speed of a Devilfish mean a fireteam that can put down a hideous amount of firepower where they please. Would that be a wee bit overpowered? It would add an edge to Gun Drones, and make Gun Drone/Stealthsuit builds much nastier.

As to wargear. Shield drones benefit battlesuits far more than they do Fire Warriors. Close Protection works for battlesuits because of the stats they adopt, the (typicall) low ROF of AP2-3  weapons that are used  against battlesuits and the ROI of a shield drone dying verses a battlesuit getting wrecked. Those same values work inversely for Fire Warrirors. FWs die more readily verses high ROF weapons and small arms, which means that the Shield Drone as a bullet catcher doesn't catch enough bullets to be worth it. Perhaps for Fire Warriors, I'd advocate an upgrade which turns the invulnerable save into a cover save for the unit (for say, +5 points)

Sorry but I don't see it.

Essentially every firewarrior carries (almost) 1/3rd of a heavy bolter, they are the only troop choice with a S5 Base gun, with better than 24 inch range too.  Asking for more, well, it's misplaced.

They don't need a tweek.

Sorry, have to agree with Augustus. They do not need a tweek. The problem is that you have a unit that has a specific role (shred GEQs). The reason that they are not taken is because hammerheads kroot and crisis suits have specific roles as well (shread armor and MEQs). If most people played guard or eldar or small bug nids or orks you would see a lot more people taking a ton of firewarriors and talking about how great they are, as it is....

Yes the Tau have a doctrine, or lets say a paradigm, to avoid confusion with IG doctrines, where they have a troop choice that doesnt carry an anti tank weapon a special weapon or have a close combat option(s).  This is a real failing when compared directly to imperial troops, but it is a part of their paradigm, their army structure, that their tanks carry the missiles, and that their heavy suits bring the special/Heavy weapons.

I long lamented that the IG can have a missile launcher that shoots all game for 10 points in their squad, while the firewarriors pay for a Shas'whatever a markjer light and then get to BUY ONE missile for 10 points, essentially thats a 35 points single shot krak missile... Makes a hunter seeker look good eh? But wait!

That doesn't account for the marker lights other effects, or the benefits associated with moving the missile fire location on the tank, or that someone else could shoot the missile if the marker light user got killed....

It's a different army structure, for a purpose. 

(In retrospect I do sort of like the shield generator drone giving the unit a cover save, instead of taking a single hit, but boy that sounds like "conceal"...)

I have always thought there was one thing that need to be changed about the pulse rifle.  I think Firewarriors are fine the way they are but the pulse rifle should have one change.

Being as every other rapid fire weapon in the game is a max range of 24 with two shots at 12....the pulse rifle being a max range of 30 should get two shots at 15....it only makes sense to me.  But other than that I have to agree with Augustus....they are fine.

Fire Warriors can be fielded 12strong with a random mix of either Pulse Rifle or Carbine(causes pinning) and can also include two more gun drones making it 14man strong. thats 150pt for 14models which can either reach 30" where most can only reach 24" if standing still and can cause pinnig checks as well even if those models have moved.

Personally I play both Marines and Tau and even I hate the little beggers! because they are so good.

Wouldn't mind seeing a couple of extra's in the armory but otherwise they don't need tweeking one bit.

P.S. they do need backing up, FW, get killed very easily if left on there own for to long

I like the 15 inch rapid fire also, but necesary? Not really.

I believe I should have explained myself better. I based the shift to Heavy 2 after researching a lot of batreps (this isn't based on solely my experience of FWs). What I've found is that Pulse Rifles in general seem to be prized more for the rapid fire capbility than they are the range. This is because of the preponderance of MEQs, therefore rapid fire = more marine killage, and that Pinning was not considered as tactical option (hence no Pulse Carbines). Considerable attention in Batreps both during and post-battle was placed on the performance of battlesuits, while FW's merited things along the lines of "FW unit X killed a marine". There was one exception I found - here on Dakka Dakka! - where the army was developed around FWs. The comments post-batrep were that to use FWs, the army needs considerable thought and design *around* FWs. It didn't sit well with me that FWs were generally marginalised and Pulse Rifle range was also marginalised in favour of Rapid Fire, but as you, Augustus, and Foil have pointed out, FWs are marginalised because they're not good at killing the predominant army meta-type (MEQs). Hopefully the army type is going to swing over from MEQ to more GEQish, but I won't be holding my breath.

Well Max, there are some very inciteful points there!

Pinning was not considered as tactical option (hence no Pulse Carbines).

Absolutely true, indeed, that is because of the proliferation of fearless, and LD 9+.  Pinning is just not reliable.  Furthermore, why bother with A2 18 when you can have rapid fire (Essentially A2 15) and possibly 30 when you stand still.  The solution to this however is broader reaching than the FWs weapons, it has to do with the abysmal tratment of morale in 40K, mamy armies in which just dont even use it.

...attention in Batreps both during and post-battle was placed on the performance of battlesuits...

Certainly because they caryy all the MEq killer weapons, true.

...the army type is going to swing over from MEQ to more GEQ...

Certainly seems unlikely, ever.  That said, I'd like to share a few ideas that I have had regarding FW tweeks, I don't really view them as necesary, but I have thought since the last incarnation of the codex, that FWs could have more, not different weapons.  Necesary? not really, but fluffy, or useful? well, you be the judges:

What if fire the Firewarriors entry read like this:

1 Model in the squad may exchange his standard weapon for a Burst Cannon at +10 points, a Markerlight at +10 points or a Tau Sniper Rifle at +15 points.

???

Would like to add....

The rulebook states that rapid firing weapons fire once up to full range or twice up to 12inches.

I checked with GW and they confirmed that this is true, which is really annoying as it means that Krootox with a 48inch range rapid fire can shoot once up to 48" or twice up to 12"

What a real arse!

If anyone has heard anything contray to this please say so, personally i think its a stupid rule, Pulse should be twice 15" not 12"

Yeah, but it's not - that's why Krootox are useless. You can't infiltrate and you shoot twelve inches with a weapon that's so big that it has to be mounted.

The rapid 15' would make me happier as in third edition it stated that a rapid fire weapon fired twice at HALF range. Now it's fire twice at 12'. Which is great for every other army in the universe - except for Tau.

However, as a Tau player, it's not like the Firewarriors need much more. Tau are boxers not punchers - like Eldar but to a lesser extent. They are more of a skill, trickery army then most others in 40K. Everything kinda does one thing [kinda or at least has a preference.] They're still competative so it's not like it's a problem - if it were orks I'd be complaining but it's an army that's Codex isn't 9 years old.

I think a rapid-firing weapon's stats should be changed such that it may fire once at maximum range or twice at half range, if stationary, and up to two times at half range when moving.

I wouldn't mind seeing FW's get the option of a couple special weapons. I think that if they could have up to two models per squad upgraded with either a Burst Cannon or a Sniper Rifle, their ability to soften up MEQ's with either huge volumes of firepower or AP 3 killage would increase drastically.

CK

I would hate to see my fire warriors get special weapons. I do like the idea of changing the rapid fire range to half of the max range of the weapon.
The one change I would like to see is firewarriors be able to withdraw from close combat. This could be include with the purchase of photon grenades:
An tau unit equipped with photon grenades and without models in base to base contact with any assaulting unit at the conclusion of a round of close combat prior to performing leadership checks may fall back 2d6. The assaulting units consolidate.
If you wanted to make it harder you could require the Tau unit to pass a leadership test either before they can withdraw or inorder to regroup after the withdrawal.

Fish of Fury already drives people crazy..why would you want to allow them to do it from further away?

Special weapons only make them play more like the other races...

thelosttau-withdraw from close combat. This could be include with the purchase of photon grenades...

Thats a great idea, I like that very much, but then, I'm an advocate of voluntary fall back from assault anyway.

IntoTheRain- Fish of Fury already drives people crazy..why would you want to allow them to do it from further away?

Drives people crazy? really? Its incredibly overated IMO.  Its awfully expensive, risky and short ranged.  Is 3 inches more range for rapid fire really a problem that wasn't essentially there before? The effective raneg of the fish of fury is only about 14/15 inches, going to 18 a problem? Not really.

IntoTheRain- Special weapons only make them play more like the other races...

Yes, other good races.

Jokes aside, I don't see it as necesary either, but consider the situation, burst cannons, marker lights and sniper rifles are already Tau INFANTRY weapons, Firewarriors taking plasma rifles, or meltguns or flamers, wouldn't make much thematic sense because those are clearly suit weapons exclusively in their doctrine.  I wouldn't advocate their proliferation to the infantry either. However, what's wrong with the firewarriors dipping into the armory of obviously infantry weapons?

The rapid fire rules in general are kind of lame. Rapid fire weapons all kind of just seem the same to me. It would be nice to see a stat line like "rapid fire 12/24, or 10/20 or 15/30" different stats for different weapons just to provide a bit of varity... just a thought.

   Increasing the range of rapid fire for tau and such will make it impossiable for a walking ork army to ever assault the Tau. Its also the reason why they didnt give guardians an 18" range shuriken catapult. A gunline army would setup 12" up and as the Orks take 2-3 turns getting there, all the gunline has to do is walk backwards and essentially never had to get assaulted. If you did rewrite the rapidfire rules, some units will have to have a points change and like I previously said, some armies like Orks will suffer.

   Firewarriors have the 2nd best basic gun in the game and even though they have BS3, they make up with range and a good armorsave and can chew through anything without an armorsave of +3.

will make it impossiable for a walking ork army to ever assault the Tau.

Newsflash! Its already immpossible for foot slogging orcs to assault the Tau...

or the Marines at S4...

or even the IG with the pitifull las rifle at S3

Orks take 2-3 turns getting there

That's an Ork problem, not a game or a Tau problem.  That army doesnt work anymore.

The rapid fire upgrade to 50% of range is a small change, it wouldn't change the truths that already exist in the game, it would just be more elegant, and make more sense, and possibly add a bit of bite to things that are woefully underpowered anyway, like the kroot gun.  Which, statistically speaking, is almost meaningless anyway.

A neat change might be to alter the way pinning works.

Essentially the same, but with -1 to LD for every casualty caused by a pinning weapon – i.e. 3 casualties from pulse carbines causes a pinning check at -3.

Off the top of my head, the units in the game that have multiple pinning weapons tend to be ignored in favour of other stuff, (e.g. guards snipers, ratling snipers, guard mortars, tau Fire Caste warriors etc.) this would be a nice boost that would help:

a) Improve these unloved units slightly.
b) Increase the usefulness of pinning (and hence psychology in general)

Units like eldar pathfinders, eldar rangers and scout snipers get a slight boost, but due to their smaller unit sizes, not a great one. 

As a demonstration of how this helps FCW:

12 FCW with pulse carbines jump out of a Devilfish and shoot at a Space Marine squad with one markerlight.
That's eight hits, six(ish) wounds, two of which fail, causing a morale check against LD8 (assuming he's got a commander with Rites of Battle). Remove the commander, and he's testing against LD7; a 50:50 chance of being pinned. Not overpowering, and neatly improves FCW.

In fact, owing to their high strength weaponry, FCW benefit the most from this change.

There're probably some units I've forgotten about (tyranid stuff etc), but the point holds.

As a final note, this boost doesn't really affect orks at all, due to their unique morale rules!

   Orks may not be as competitve as they used to be but is it really that fair to screw a good number of loyal Ork players to the point where im not suprised if they all pack up their army and just not play the game?

   Actually its more of a game-designer problem taking away things that made the Orks competitive. Not to mention the level of neglect they have given the orks,

You see what a pitiful amount of firewarriors competitive Tau lists take (two 6 man teams), and they're usually a liability when I play with them. Augustus is partially right, they might be more useful if MEQs weren't so prevalent, but 1: MEQs are prevalent and 2: Firewarriors are too soft to trade shots with most GEQ armies.

I do like the idea of giving the squads some kind of drone-mounted weapon, but I also understand the complaint that it takes away from the Tau army's current structure and style. Too bad the style/structure has to give the common troop selection the least important role of moderately expensive light infantry killer.

I've always thought a decent compromise might be to create a "razorback"-type transport for firewarrior squads. A devilfish with an ion cannon, for example, might be interesting...

Atleast their role is far more useful than that of gretchen who now are a meat shield that is only 1/3 as effective in 4th edition.

  Is Tau really needed that bad of an upgrade of Troops when compared to Orks who need way more than just a fix in their troops choice. Jeez I wish my armies had the Tau's problems.

The don't really need an upgrade, some of the posters were stating that Firewarriors need a tweak to compete better with 75% of the builds out there.

Orks problem is that they need a complete overhaul to come even close to competeing with 95% of the lists out there. It's a seperate topic that a lot of people take seriously.

It's not like nobody here on Dakka has sympathy for Orks, it's just commonly acknowledged they need to be redesgined from the ground up to be a viable force. Tau, on the other hand, are just over a year into their new codex, and their main (and required) troop choice doesn't accomplish anything in most games.

Librarians were previousl overpowerd, and now their new powers screw IG, Tau, and Dark Eldar. Nobody stopped playing Tau over it (though a few shelved IG, and hardly anyone plays DE anymore anyway.)

As for GW screwing over loyal Ork players, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but it's a fait accompli. It's done, you're screwed. Not even Speed Freaks are marginally competitive anymore. Sure, they're lots of fun in casual games, but the codex is old, it was garbage 9 years ago, and it's absolute trash now. I'm not sure 15" FoF is going to be the thing that destroys Ork players. It was the years of neglet, ancient models, abysmal fluff, and a complete goat rodeo of a codex.

While, and most of the posters here feel for you, a topic about a theoretical change to a single weapon in another list might not be the greatest place to vent about your codex.

I was speaking ion behalf of a good friend who has played orks since 2nd edition and just relaying his feelings on the matter. I play Dark Eldar and even though my codex is somewhat obsolete its still good enough to survive 4th edition relatively good.

Hate to say it, but firewarriors do not need a tweek at all. If I could take them in my guard army I would in a heart beat. 30inch range str5 guns. Say good by to any av10 skimmer. Try playing with guard for a while and you will see thier value.

10 firewarriors doubletapping marines = a little over 2 dead marines
10 guardsman with plasma gun and missle launcher double tapping marines = slightly more than two marines

However the firewarriors have better range, better save, but do not have a chance at taking out a tank.

I like the idea of giving firewarriors a little something to make them stronger. How about Shas'ui skills, similar to the Exarch skills of the Eldar?

Every shas'ui can take one of the following:

Deadshot: (10pts): If the squad did not move, all 6's to wound are AP3. This may only be used once per game.
Sharpshooters (10pts): the squad may re-roll all 1's to hit.
Cunning: (5 pts) may re-roll all morale and pinning tests, even if passed.
Overwatch: (10pts): the squad may choose not to shoot during it's shooting phase. If assaulted, the squad may fire as normal at the first squad that assaults them.

These are right off the top of my head, so they probolby won't work.

I am definitely in favor of the razorback transport that was mentioned before. IMO the rifles are okay, but it is the carbines that need tweaking.

In the fluff it says that the Carbine is essentially a grenade launcher. I think that the carbine should have a small blast template that is used whenever it is fired. On average, a small blast template will hit maybe 2 or 3 people which would be better than it only being capable of hitting one.

For 120 points you essentially have 4 heavy bolters. Range is a little shorter and the AP isn't as good, but the effect against mechs is the same. I don't feel that the warriors or the squads need ANY tweaking IMO.

The carbines don't hold any appeal to me however so I would like to see the FW squad Carbines function a little different (not the pathfinders). There isn't much incentive to fielding a bunch in a squad as Pinning without Markerlights is almost impossible against MEQs. Perhaps making them Assault 2, with a cost of +2 per model.

Perhaps the only effective use I've seen for this weapon is the Fish of Fury tactic. Even then I'd much rather have 24 shots then 12.

The carbines suffer the same problem as Eldar Shurican weapons. They don't have enough firepower to compensate for the relative danger a T3, 4/5+ save unit gets into in order to shoot. Guardian Squads are even worse with their 12' range.

However, the pulse rifle units are gold. Only marines and bike units and tanks are remotely able to walk up to them. Their big problem is things deep striking right next to the unit. If anything they need to diversify the missle options you can mount on devil fish.

If a Firewarrior unit with marker lights was able to call a blast template type missle, perhaps T5/AP3, instead of just a hunter killer it would make them much more viable against MEQs and beef up Sky Rays too.

Fire Warriors don't need tweaking.

People with two 6 Tau teams think they suck because they dont see what they are good at. Massed firepower. Four twelve Tau teams dont cost much and have a lot of firepower.

As for upgunning them, I disagree. It goes against their background to give them heavy weapon upgrade options. Tau are the ultimate dogmatic space commies, it will be unthinkable to favour one tau with a heavy weapon. Instead wait until they have passed their trials and get promoted to battlesuits. Then thay all get them. That is the Tau way.
The markerlight on the shas'ui doesnt count as he operator sacrifices his own firepower to assist others. What is more Tau than that.

Pathfinders are different, specialist troops for forward operations. Not rank and file Tau.