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Question?  Exactly how does sustained attack work because it is not specified in the Demon Hunters codex.  i play chaos and use alot of demons.

Once a unit is destroyed, and is subject to Sustained Assault, it re-enters play from the owner's board edge. So, your daemons would come back onto the board, but not be summoned.

Posted By kayge777 on 03/08/2007 11:32 AM
Question?  Exactly how does sustained attack work because it is not specified in the Demon Hunters codex.  i play chaos and use alot of demons.

Actually it is in the DH codex. Page 8 bottom right under Daemonic Infestation.

I was just wondering about that rule, and do not have the Codex - is that rule limited to demon packs, or is it applicable to any demon unit?

Posted By Antonin on 03/08/2007 2:59 PM
I was just wondering about that rule, and do not have the Codex - is that rule limited to demon packs, or is it applicable to any demon unit?

Daemon Packs, Nurglings and Daemonic Beast Packs.

When you read the BGB, I think you'll find that the sustained attack rules allow units to re-enter play from any portion of board edge that is not inside the defender's deployment zone.

IIRC, in general (DH aside) it applies only to troops, and only the troops recycle, any transports etc do not.

For daemons, it happens just like AM said.

Would like to note that the rule in the DH codex says it works as per the Sustained Attack rule in the BBB, and thats on page 193 of the BBB. So if you have the BFM rules, then you will need the hardcover version.

Actually, you can download the missing rules for sustained attack and preliminary barrage from... um... somewhere on the GW website.

The big part that no Demonhunter player ever has told me about my demons is they can come from 'any' board edge, just not from the Demonhunter's deployment zone. Big, big difference than from your own board edge.

Posted By Sarigar on 03/09/2007 5:18 AM
The big part that no Demonhunter player ever has told me about my demons is they can come from 'any' board edge, just not from the Demonhunter's deployment zone. Big, big difference than from your own board edge.

Well to be clear, they have to be summoned intitially (except Nurglings of course). Once summoned, when they are eleigble to re-enter its from the owning players edge or either short edge outside of the other players deployment zone. They can not be summoned again after the intital summoning and they can't enter from the opponents deployment zone. Personally, this rule is very unblancing in that not only does it nerf the DH chaos specific bonuses, it actually makes them worse vs. chaos than they are vs. xenos. Sure its fluffy, but thats the point. If the GK or Space Marines were fluffy they would all be T5 and have 3 wounds so...

That rule in no way, shape, or form weakens demonhunters. I have never, ever, seen a situation in which it has hurt the DH player at all, or helped the chaos player at all.

Let's break it down - (1)a demon pack must be summoned. Turn two (barring odd circumstances) or after. (2) ENTIRE Demon pack must die - at the earliest turn 3-4, more likely turn 5. (3) Demons enter the table edge on Chaos turn 4-5 and move up to 6". (4) Demons move 6" on turn 5-6, maybe charge.... into Demonhunters! And the DH, which is expressly tooled out to shoot and chop demons into bits, gets VP for the extra fodder?

Yeah, that's a real disadvantage for the DH, especially in tournaments where the game may go only 4-5 turns occasionally.

Now, if the demons used their normal summoning rules, it would be more interesting - they might actually be useful (I said might! They are being thrown against DH either way!)

First, a Daemon Icon allows a Daemon pack to be summoned turn one without rolling according to RAW.

Second, the entire pack doesn't have to die(page 193 of the BBB), it only has to fall back or be reduced to less than 50% strength then the owner simply removes it from the table and brings it back on next round. A squad of GK Termies or GK will kill half a pack a turn no problem but they will suffer a few losses themselves in the process. When you have a pack or three of Bloodletters or Daemonettes w/power weapon or rending attacks that wont stay dead its a major issue. Especially if they can come in within assault range the next round and especially when the GK are not coming back, they stay dead.

It is extremely unbalancing. Granted you get VP for them every time they are recycled, but if your not playing for VP then your just screwed. It is horribly unbalancing.

The Demon Icon was my "barring odd circumstances".

Demons don't fall back.

What Chaos Player wants to sack a unit of depleted though still alive demons and give up the VPs (and leave their opponents no longer locked in combat), only to have to bring the demons in on the table edge?

I suppose it may help the chaos player, if the DH player leaves units within 12" of an unfriendly board edge. I will give you that.

The only chaos players this may help are those that use a demonbomb army. I don't, so maybe that is why I have a jaded impression. I guess Demonbomb armies need any help they can get...

Antonin...I play a pure Grey Knight army and this post by Kayge777 is directed at games that he and I play.  From what I've read the deamon bomb is considered to be very powerful and against Grey Knights its insane the amount of trouble it causes with them coming back on the board.  A squad of charging bloodletters can kill a 10 man squad of Grey knights (with all their fancy rules for fighting them, which turns out to be -1 leadership for instability tests and they have to move through cover to assault, which is basically nothing) easily on the charge.  The only REAL advantage that Grey Knights get against deamons comes from the Grimoire of True Names and Sacred Incense.  Which you can only have one of each of in your army at any one time.  I mean yea its nice to have a 5 WS and hit with Str 6 but that is not stopping those deamons from killing my whole unit in one or 2 turns and then coming back on the board edge IF I take them out.

Now im not asking for Grey Knights to be tougher....we are fine, but to argue that sustained attack for all deamon packs is NOT unbalancing is insanity.

But I do have a question about SA, when does it happen? if I kill a pack of deamons do they immediately reenter from any board edge (not in my deployment zone) or do they reenter at the very beginning of my opponents next turn?  Also does that reentry count as movement if it happens at the beginning of the turn?

You make some great points.

However I think every army struggles against demonbombs, so I'm not sure that example proves anything.

Posted By Antonin on 03/09/2007 10:31 AM
You make some great points.

However I think every army struggles against demonbombs, so I'm not sure that example proves anything.

Your making my point actually. Every army does struggle against Daemonbombs. The Grey Knights have to struggle against Daemonbombs that dont go away.

Another concept being forgotten here is the fact that Daemons are scoring units.

So a Daemon unit can go charging into the Grey Knights, do their damage, die and come on from a board edge in order to capture a table quarter or an objective on the opposite flank near the board edge.

So while SA isn't a great ability if you pay for it (like with the Tyranid codex), if you get it for free (such as when fighting GK) it can only really be a benefit.

Posted By yakface on 03/09/2007 4:06 PM

Another concept being forgotten here is the fact that Daemons are scoring units.

So a Daemon unit can go charging into the Grey Knights, do their damage, die and come on from a board edge in order to capture a table quarter or an objective on the opposite flank near the board edge.

So while SA isn't a great ability if you pay for it (like with the Tyranid codex), if you get it for free (such as when fighting GK) it can only really be a benefit.

Actually according to the DH codex once they are brought back via sustained assault, they are no longer scoring units so can't claim objectives or quarters. However, they do count until they are recycled.

Still, the real benefit is when you get Power Weapon/Rending units that recycle. They will simply win thru attrition eventually. Not to mention they will usually draw the fire of units as well, which is shots taken away from units that wont come back. Truthfully, the smartest thing to do is shoot the scoring units first, as thats really your only chance of winning in a non-VP game.

The real pain is the fact that its free. IMHO, the best way to make it balanced is offer it to the Chaos player but he has to pay for it. Then it would be balanced I think.

In my experience, the furies and mounted daemonettes have been able to very successfully exploit this rule; it has won games for my Word Bearers, no question.

Not quite true. Nothing prevents a daemon pack from being summoned on turn 1, but nothing allows it either. It's possible to argue either way.



Negative. It's "fall back and be reduced to less than 50% strength". Daemons never fall back. So they have to be wiped out to be killed off.



Not really. It's just something that you have to consider what to do. Basically, the best choice is usually to form a castle at least 24" away from any table edge outside your deployment zone. Even 12" is usually sufficient, unless your opponent has daemonettes on steeds. The only daemons who are really threatening are Daemonettes, Bloodletters, and Steed Daemonettes. Anything else really isn't a threat to Grey Knights.

The only time it really becomes bad news is if you've got large numbers of non-GK units...which as far as I've ever seen it, only happens when an IG army takes a GK Termi squad, or even just a GM. Then they get hose.

Aside from that, its just free VPs to the GK player.

Posted By Pyrian on 03/09/2007 6:06 PM
In my experience, the furies and mounted daemonettes have been able to very successfully exploit this rule; it has won games for my Word Bearers, no question.

A lot of it largely depends on how many GK's you have.  If your army only has a squad, then the reoccuring daemons can really bite you in the rear.  But if you've got multiple squads of GK's its really easy to deal with. 

Every time I've faced a Daemonbomb army with my Daemonhunters, they've gotten killed off, and I've won ridiculous number of VPs doing so.  12"+ away from a table edge keeps you safe from daemon packs.  18"+ keeps you safe from furies.  24"+ keeps you safe from everything else. 

In addition to that, staying in cover means means you're striking first.  with 3+ to hit (WS5) and 2+ to wound (s6) you're going to gut any non-bloodletters that charge you. 

Like I said...the only time I've seen it work to the Daemon-player's advantage was when the army consisted of only a few GKs.  Otherwise, its just free VPs to to the GKs. 

Posted By Centurian99 on 03/09/2007 8:17 PM

First, a Daemon Icon allows a Daemon pack to be summoned turn one without rolling according to RAW.

Not quite true. Nothing prevents a daemon pack from being summoned on turn 1, but nothing allows it either. It's possible to argue either way.

 

Actually, the wording of the Daemon Icon allows it. It simply says "the pack can be summoned at the start of the Chaos players turn without needing to roll". That means at the start of the Chaos players turn, which would be turn 1. Believe me, I think its a BS rule, but we already know the Chaos codex is probably the one with the most errors(BS?) in it.

Ahh yes. I misread it. It is "and" and not "or". Regardless, the GK will 90% of the time either force them to fail a stability test, so my point is still valid in that they will be removed after one round of assault usually.

As far as instability goes do the deamon packs take minuses like regular squads? like -1 for under half strength or the minuses for being outnumbered?

Posted By Vult on 03/10/2007 4:26 AM
As far as instability goes do the deamon packs take minuses like regular squads? like -1 for under half strength or the minuses for being outnumbered?

Its treated just like a morale test, so yes. The only difference is, instead of falling back they take a wound for every point they fail it by. GK give them a -1 to their LD for stability tests so this makes it slightly (very slightly) worse.

That's not the problem. The problem is whether or not the daemons are actually available, because they automatically begin the game in reserve.

The demon icon allows you to bring demons on turn one if your foolish enough to at that range. Only a unit of chosen may ever have one.

It says and i quote "can be automatically summoned without makeing a reserves roll". The only reason they are turn two in the first place is because you cannot make reserve rolls until than. Whats so bs about it? Your a fool to bring on weak a$$ demons on turn one anyways??? And the only not weak demon (Bloodletters) has no ranged attack and a 6 inch move??? Big deal.

By the way the chaos codex has very few issues. Its the people that try and twist the large amount of info that makes it feel that way.

By the way sustained attack is a joke. Ive never seen it help myself or anyone else. When playing greyknights the demon unit is not going to last but one turn anyways, and the unit worthy enough (again bloodletters) is hard to kill so by the time they come back on its usually to far away or to close to game end to do anything. Almost worthless.

Little bit off the rest of the post here, but when a unit of demons is brought back on the board in this fashion how is it done?

Do they immediately come on the board when they are destroyed?
Do they move on at the start of that controlling players next turn? and if so does moving on count as your movement for that round?

Lets not derail this thread with an argument about the Demon Icon. Start a new thread for that.