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HQ
two Tyrants with t-l deathspitters and VC.  Two guards each.

Elite
Screamer-killer Fex
two fexes with dual t-l devourers and ES

Troops
16 spinegaunts
16 spinegaunts

HS
two fexes: AG (both), Bonded exo, R. Chitin, Tusked, STx2, TS
Fex: ES, VC, BS, Bonded exo, R. chitin, spinebanks

1500 points on the dot.  Mostly this list is for fun, but I have to say it would be rather effective.  It's tempting...

Yikes.

Yikes yourself.

I can't wait for 5th Ed to take the nerf-bat to MC's...

Please oh please let JJ write the new Nid codex...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well, the fact that you've made 3 of your six Carnifexes into near useless close-combat units makes this one of the more "friendly" (i.e. easier to handle) Godzilla lists.


The thing is, Godzilla armies have such a bad rep right now you'll still probably have a bunch of people hating your army despite the fact that it really isn't all that good (and tremendously slow).

Any game invovling Escalation will not be too much fun for you.

Anyone who says CC fexes are worthless or even "near worthless" is a joke. To be honest this simply means you are incapable of thought outside the realm of what someone has shown/told you. I have used CC MC's to my advantage to win many battles my friend. They serve a very real purpose. If you know, in advance the army in which you are to face, and gear your list accordingly, then you didn't have a very good list to start with. Yes, my list is slow. Yes, my list is not the norm. Yes, I am a very adept tactician and can use this list to my advantage. Will this list win every time? No. It was never intended to. ZillaNid lists are an oddity to me. I prefer a more balanced approach. And while I'm on this tirade, anyone who would knock points off someone for using a perfectly legal list is, frankly, a waste of human DNA and should be dealt with accordingly. If it's in the rules, it's not "cheesy." If it's in the rules, it's fair game and you should shut your ****ing pie hole. This goes for Nids, Eldar, SM, ect. Would I take this list to a tourney? No. It neither serves my purpose or my style. Would I use this in a friendly game? Sure. And my opponent would laugh and we would have a good game, win, loose, or draw. Yes I disagree with some of the rules in the game, but I would never blame a player for using said rules. If you can't find an equally absurd rule to exploit yourself, then you're not looking hard enough or you're playing the Space marines (I kid, I kid). The point of the game is not to make a "friendly" list that has glaring weaknesses so that you and your opponent can be nice. It's a battle of wits. You have to be able to remove your "hostility" from your opponent and use it just on the table. Do I like it when I am boarded? No. (and it's only come close to that once to me while I have nearly boarded three other armies) But I can accept that defeat and find another way to ensure my win, whether that is tactics or a new list entirely. It's a game, treat it as such!

Yeah, I can see your point. Putting 175 pts into a model thatcan only move 6" and has no ranged attack seems like a great way to use the points. What were we thinking.

Yup, you are exactly right. There is no way a 175 point carnifex can beat an entire 1500 point army. Wooooow... do any of you actually think for themselves or do you just spout what others have said? How many units in the warhammer 40k universe can only move 6 assault 6? I can think of a few. The fact that it has no ranged attack hasn't stopped it from killing everything from terminators to skimmers. There is not a single unit in the game that is totally useless (at least from what I've seen). It may not fit into your play style. It may not even be the wisest use of points in a list. However, it may serve a strategic purpose that you haven't thought of. I can only imagine how this might fracture your tiny little world. And if you're gunna try to use sarcasm, at least get your points values right. Spouting opinion as fact usually works better if you get the only part that can be proven, correct. Tiny minds, tiny outlooks, tiny worlds. At least you're playing a miniature game.

Posted By colonel_sanders on 05/16/2007 3:45 PM
Anyone who says CC fexes are worthless or even "near worthless" is a joke. To be honest this simply means you are incapable of thought outside the realm of what someone has shown/told you. I have used CC MC's to my advantage to win many battles my friend. They serve a very real purpose. If you know, in advance the army in which you are to face, and gear your list accordingly, then you didn't have a very good list to start with. Yes, my list is slow. Yes, my list is not the norm. Yes, I am a very adept tactician and can use this list to my advantage. Will this list win every time? No. It was never intended to. ZillaNid lists are an oddity to me. I prefer a more balanced approach.

If you don't appreciate criticism of your army list perhaps you shouldn't post it in a forum for people to do exactly that?

Perhaps my comments about CC Carnifexes seem flippant but I am speaking of them from an overall usefulness within the role of the army when comparatively weighed against the other choices available to you.

Can a CC Carnifex be useful in games? Certainly. The same could be said about Ork Stikkbomma mobs. The thing is, you only have so many points/force organization slots available to you as a player and if a unit doesn't perform as well as other units for a comparable points cost then within that context it can be considered a useless unit.

An all shooting Godzilla list puts tremendous pressure on the enemy as all 8 Monstrous Creatures shoot with devestating results (and are all usually within range of a target by turn 2 in non-Escalation games). Most opposing armies cannot out-shoot the Godzilla list and if they attempt to assault the Bugs to silence the guns then a combination of counter-charge units (Genestealers, Raveners) and a few Monstrous Creatures can usually decimate enemy CC units. In short, the army has very few weaknesses.

By mixing in CC Carnifexes, you dillute your ability to outshoot your opponents. Worse, your CC elements (the Carnifexes) are so slow that the enemy can pick and choose which of your units to shoot and destroy first. The fact that you have less guns shooting at them means as the turns go on they will continue to have more shots firing back at you (then they would have if you were playing a pure shooty Godzilla list).

The reality is, unless your opoonent is stupid or careless your CC Carnifexes will not be able to get into close combat until turn 4 at the very earliest, and often (against good players or fast moving armies) they will never get an opportunity to fight anyone in the whole game. Their whole contribution will revolve around objective denial.

That may work in an Alpha game where objectives are key but in Gamma or Omega a couple of CC Carnifexes left sitting on an objective at the end of the game isn't going to win the day when they rest of your army has been shot to pieces.

And then you have to consider Escalation (Omega) missions, where CC Carnifexes will be very hard pressed to contribute to the game AT ALL.

Sure if you're playing a Cities of Death game or you know that you won't be playing with Escalation (perhaps you've agreed to play an Alpha mission) a CC Carnifex can be an okay choice, but the fact remains that a shooty Carnifex can do more damage in more situations against a wider array of enemy threats and that makes the CC Carnifex overall a near worthless unit.

Yak, thanks. I appreciate someone coming to this debate with something to say. I can absolutely appreciate your comments for bringing substance. To be honest, I may be a little on edge due to the common misconception that the norm is always best. I do however disagree. My tactics with CC fexes are not common. Without going into too much detail (most of my foes read these forums) they are worth alot as intimidation (control your enemies movement, control the game). As stated in my original post, this is something I came up with as more or less a goof. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it's the best option. Likewise, just because you don't understand how a unit can be used, doesn't make it useless within context. You are correct in that an escalation scenario would not form well for this army. That's also why I don't run this normally. I can't remember if it was this thread or another where I mentioned my TERRIBLE rolling. So for my armies, BS3 usually is wasted points. Puts a little spin on why I don't take fexes to shoot. it all goes back to a game of risk where for ten minutes, I rolled 5's and 6's and cleared 2/3 of the board with the second smallest army out of six... lol Ever since then, I've been horrible at rolling dice, any dice. I also would never take more than one HS CCfex in a normal game. Cities of Death is a totally different story Like I said, it's one thing to not understand my list and state why you don't like it. It's another thing to disregard something without attempting to know it. Also, I don't say this to brag but, I have a mind for tactics and statistics. I have spent hours reading and re-reading codex to understand the pluses and minuses to everything. I'm not saying I can win every game. I usually know, however, whether I can win or not after the first turn.

To be fair Yakface this is to face a non minimaxed marine army listed here on Dakka, with less assault cannon and lascannon than it is entitled to. E.g. termies only carrying one and no lascannon at all, except on the dreadnought.

If anything they are taking 40K to a higher level than most, because they know how to max out and choose not to by mutual agreement. Or at least his opponent likely thinks that way.

On the other hand throwing rattles out of pram because you get criticism bring sthe respect level right back down again.  Especially because it was good friendly un-condescending criticism, from someone who knows what they are talking about.

When it comes to criticism of the bugs, forget the Carnifexes. I have seen close combat carnifexes work, admittedly in non escalatrion games. but deathspitters on Hive Tyrants, something is wrong there. What a waste of an A3 monster.

Because he is using stuff most players wouldnt consider I cannot actually read this: AG (both), Bonded exo, R. Chitin, Tusked, STx2, TS

Basically that fex is WS4 BS2 S10 T7 W5 I2 A4(6 on the charge). And to my credit, this list is also to be used versus Eldar, Witchhunters, Chaos, and a few others I occasionally encounter. I may not win every time, but my win ratio since I started with the bugs is quite good. I understand how to use what I have. I don't think gearing a list to kill a specific enemy list is very reasonable. I expect sooner or later I will have to face a tyranid hunter army. I also play Chaos, and my most often played opponent may just as easily have to face them at my whim. I have made this list from units that have worked for me in the past, not against specific army, but in general. And maybe you have read in one post or another of mine that I roll poorly I take units that attempt to compensate for that.


Edit: I believe that this will be my final post as it has become clear that most of what I say falls on deaf ears.  I had no intentions of coming on here to argue.  I know what has worked for me in the past and how I can use my units to my advantage.  I was hoping to give an alternative to the status quo but it turns out, most everyone seems content to stay there.  So as a courtesy, I will withdrawal myself in hopes that everyone will have fun playing this fine game. 

You know, I do understand how nastily disgusting that beast would be in Assault, but what kind of opponents are you playing that actually move closer to that thing??? I mean, assuming the standard "at least" 24" apart normal deployment zones, you can't assault until turn 4, unless the opponent moves closer to the bug. Assuming you're fighting against marines, you statistically won't kill enough to come close to equaling the points value of the critter in four assault phases, and a hidden powerfist should still all but do for it.

But maybe I'm just biased; I typically play DE, and the 'Nidzilla is one army that I really don't have much trouble with (25 S8 AP2 weapons in 1850 points, plus agonizers on wyches).

We are sorry we are not good enough players to comprehend your level of strategery. I think the people at Dakka just don't have enough experience to deal with your nuances of the proper use of a carnifex.

Posted By colonel_sanders on 05/16/2007 3:45 PM
 Yes, I am a very adept tactician

If you are able to make use of an assault unit thats too slow to assault anything, you must be.

This reminds me of those 300 page 'tactica' threads on Warseer where someone proposes a tactic generally considered to be sub-optimal and then tries in vain to argue they've discovered something everyone else has missed.

Actually, to give Col the benefit of the doubt. This list could work, if his opponent doesn't recognize the correct target priority. Or uses the wrong weapons.For example, If you let those rippers tar pit your units, then the CC fex may get into CC in 3-4 turns.