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I'd love your thoughts, input. 

 I used to play my BA with all Infantry, Speeders, and Dreads, but thought I would try a bit more of a mix for my first list on the new 'Dex.

 

Let me know what you think.  I'll only post unit total costs so as not to seriously P/O anyone at GW.

 

HQ: Chaplain Lemartes - 125

Elite 0: Death Company (8) w/ jump packs (5 free, 3 paid for) - 130 pts

Elite 1: VAS (6) w/ 1xPower Fist, 1xPower Weapon, 1xLightning Claws, 1xMeltagun, and 1xMeltaBomb - 260 pts (I know LC are pricey, but I need a place to use my old SHP with LC - he looks awesome)

Elite 2: VAS (6) w/ 1xPower Fist, 2xStorm Bolters, 1xFlamer, 1xMeltagun, and 1xMeltaBomb - 230 pts

Troops 1: TacSqd (5) w/ 1xMeltagun, RazorBack w/HvyBltr, Storm Bltr, and Extra Armor - 195 pts

Troops 2: TacSqd (5) w/ 1xMeltagun, RazorBack w/HvyBltr, Storm Bltr, and Extra Armor - 195 pts

Troops 3: TacSqd (5) w/ 1xMeltagun, RazorBack w/HvyBltr, Storm Bltr, and Extra Armor - 195 pts

Fast Attack 1: Land Speeder (1) w/ HvyBltr, Assault Cannon, AND Typhoon Missile - 110 pts

Fast Attack 2: Land Speeder (1) w/ HvyBltr, Assault Cannon, AND Typhoon Missile - 110 pts

Heavy Support 1: Baal Predator w/ HvyBltr Sponsons and Storm Bltr - 135 pts

Heavy Support 2: Baal Predator w/ HvyBltr Sponsons and Storm Bltr - 135 pts

Heavy Support 3: Predator Annihilator w/ Lascannon Sponsons and Extra Armor- 180 pts

 

3 jumping units, 3 mobile tac squads with HvyBltr razorbacks, lots of AC goodiness in the speeders and Preds, little bit more anti tank with the annihilator, plus the  meltabombs and guns on the VAS and hte meltaguns in the tacs.

the 'dex says 0-1 Speeders can take Typhoon and 0-2 may take AC or HF, but does not say you can't dump them on the same model.

 

So, what do you think, tear it up.....

 

Ben

The lascannon sponsons are really expensive. I think you'd be better off w/ TL-Lascannon and hvy bolter sponsons. That should free up some points for some pwrwpns or fists on the Tac squads.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I have to agree on the sponsons. Waaaaaay too expensive now.

Also, if you're going to put extra armor on something, maybe it should be the Baal preds? They've got to get nice & close to the enemy to use their turret ACs. On transports it's just so expensive that you might be better without it, use the points on another scoring unit somewhere. Multimelta attack bikes will be the new tornados. Well, not really. But they are good!

The VAS seem a little packed, it's only two bullet catchers out of six marines. I'd say no more than half the squad should have an upgrade or you start losing models fast. I'd give them melta, flamer, PF in one squad, melta, flamer, and awesome lightning claw model in the other if I had my druthers.

I kinda like the landspeeders. 100 points is just a little costly for a tornado, but ten more points and it's a typhoonado? Brilliant. I foresee some opponents really hating it, but it makes them even nastier vs. hordes.

Hey,

Thanks for the feedback.

Couple of points, 

Extra armor is Not an option for Baal Predators,  I guess they decided that the overcharged engines needed some kind of trade-off.

I think your probably right on the Razorbacks,  I was trying to go Wysiwig, and I modelled extra armor on all my rhino chassis (I have 9 hulls and swap them between Rhino/Razor/Pred/Whirly with magentized weapon options).  I could use those points to dump a PW into each tac squad.

Still thinking about the VAS load out.  Your both right that the squads lack bullet catchers, but I've always hated that concept (much as it is a neccesary tactical manuever in 40k, my USMC heart rebels at it)  Might drop a little from them.  My plan was to use the DC to screen the VAS with the uber-CC load out and use the other VAS as a mobile fire platform.

Yes, the new Typhoonado is awesome and surprising, and a great horde killer,  I figured it should statistically kill about 7-8 IG or gaunt type models a turn.  In the new dex, you could put one Typhoonado, one regular Tornado, and one regular speeder in each squadron.  Lots of upgrading to do on my 9 standard speeders.

On the Pred Annih.  I know those sponsons are god-aweful expensive, but it's still cheeper than a Dev squad with 3 LC,  and it's my only dedicated anti tank.  I will give this some thought though as it would at least enable me to move and fire..... and to add a few more VAS or DC

You do realise your DC can't screen anything, right? This is 40k, not fantasy... the only things that can screen anything are tanks... otherwise it's just a LD test to shoot the things behind them.

The Pred Annihalator may be less expensive than the Dev squad... but the Dev squad also can't be killed by one lascannon. And what are you talking about.... assault cannons are much better Anti-tank than lascannons... get another Baal and use the points saved to put a powerfist in each squad

Angron,

Yes, I know the models can't physically prevent others from shooting at the VAS, but the reality is the DC is scary, and will draw a lot of fire, so the result of having them out front is that they will end up screening the VAS from most if not all fire just by virtue of being the fire magnet.  Some players might shoot the VAS, but the majority of fire will go to the DC.

Not sure I agree that AC are better AT than LC.  They are certainly capable but, well, there is room for disagreement on that point. 

I also figured 3 Baal's would pretty much make me despised by most opponents as a bit beardy.

There is no room for disagreement. Mathmatically an assault cannon is better at anti-tank than a lascannon. And if 3 baals make your opponents upset... they deserve a swift kick to the nether region.... repeatidly

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/18/2007 1:21 PM
The lascannon sponsons are really expensive. I think you'd be better off w/ TL-Lascannon and hvy bolter sponsons. That should free up some points for some pwrwpns or fists on the Tac squads.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

actually the better set up would be to drop the twin-linked turret, for the auto-cannon. It makes the tank the same cost as the twin-linked turret heavy bolters, but it anti tanks better since you could get two las cannon hits, and with even bellow average dice rolls will still get one. The auto cannon can actually pin ( well glance more often)  falcons and bring down light stuff, and can still glance 13 armor.

This is also easier to convert if he was useing a triple las cannon pred before.

The fact the tank can't move and shoot but one weapon isn;t an issue since neither can the tank its replacing.

I would drop the extra armor its not doing much of anything really, best bet is just take the tank at the base cost of 130 points, thats 50 more points to play with ( ie 2 power fists , or 3 power weapons).

Fast Attack 1: Land Speeder (1) w/ HvyBltr, Assault Cannon, AND Typhoon Missile - 110 pts

Fast Attack 2: Land Speeder (1) w/ HvyBltr, Assault Cannon, AND Typhoon Missile - 110 pts

negative on this , almost 100% posative you can;t put the typhoon missle launchers on the same speeder as the assault cannons.  I know in normal marines and DA you can't. I don;t have the pdf with me but pretty sure you can;t with the BA either.  give them the multi melta and assault cannon, and leave it at that .  this frees up another 20 points.

I have the new codex and here's my thoughts

This list really doesn't have a good amount of long ranged anti-armor. One tank can be picked off. I agree with above- run razorbacks at twin linked laz cannons. Razors are cheaper now.

VAS- a small squad is very expensive. Kill 4 marines (not hard to do) and you've given away 130 pts. If you want to run a VAS, run a full sized one for two reasons. 1. They'll survive longer. 2. You're not going to have to make hard choices of what expensive wargear to to lose when you start taking wounds.

Currently I dont' see this army working well as a whole. You have 21 jump packers moving forward. 1 good sized unit and 2 undersized ones. Your small VAS are very weak targets unless you run the Baals forward at 12" (hoping you get that 4+ to still shoot your weapons). Keeping your assaulters close to the Baals makes that group nice targets for enemy ord. Be wary of that. I suggest other rapid moving units that can lay down some good fire support.  Rhinos are no longer worthless, so I suggest a few of those.  I've had amazing success using my smoked rhinos as shields for advancing jumpers.

I also miss my SHP w/2LC.

Posted By Narlix on 05/22/2007 1:58 PM

Fast Attack 1: Land Speeder (1) w/ HvyBltr, Assault Cannon, AND Typhoon Missile - 110 pts

Fast Attack 2: Land Speeder (1) w/ HvyBltr, Assault Cannon, AND Typhoon Missile - 110 pts

negative on this , almost 100% posative you can;t put the typhoon missle launchers on the same speeder as the assault cannons.  I know in normal marines and DA you can't. I don;t have the pdf with me but pretty sure you can;t with the BA either.  give them the multi melta and assault cannon, and leave it at that .  this frees up another 20 points.

Well, I'm looking at the PDF right now and it reads as follows;

Unit Composition: 1 Land Speeder

Unit Type: Vehicle Squadron

Wargear: Heavy Bolter or multi-melta.

Options:

• May include up to two extra Land Speeders for +xx points each.
• One Land Speeder may add a Typhoon missile launcher for +xx points.
• Up to two Land Speeders may be given a heavy flamer for +xx points each, or an assault cannon for +xx points each.
  
  

That is the total of the text.  It does not say anywhere that the inclusion of the first option invalidates the second.

It does not say that a model must Replace any piece of wargeer, that would mean that the first option eliminated the origianl piece of wargeer, thereby eliminating the option of a second.

Example:  VAS squad entry states that up to three models may Replace their bolter or chainsword with XXX, and up to Two models may replace their bolter or chainsword with XXX.

In this case, if you upgraded 3 guys to, say, PW's, then you could not give any of those same guys a flamer, as they have already given up their bolter (or chainsword) for the first upgrade.

 

In the Speeder squadron, it just says they may add those options, and that not more than X number of them may receive each upgrade, but it nowhere specifies that one speeder cannot relieve more than one upgrade

OK, I did a re-work of the list.  Let me know what you think.

HQ: Chaplain Lemartes - 125

Elite 0: Death Company (8) w/ Jump Packs (5 free, 3 paid for) - 130 pts

Elite 1: VAS (10) w/ 1xPower Fist, 1xLightning Claws, 1xStorm Bolter, 1xMeltagun, 1xFlamer and 1xMeltaBomb - 355pts

Elite 2: VAS (10) w/ 1xPower Fist, 2xStorm Bolters, 1xFlamer, 1xMeltagun, and 1xMeltaBomb - 330 pts

Troops 1: TacSqd (10) w/ 1xPower Fist, 1xMeltagun, 1xMissile Launcher- 235 pts

Troops 2: TacSqd (10) w/ 1xPower Fist, 1xMeltagun, 1xMissile Launcher- 235 pts

Troops 3: TacSqd (5) w/ 1xMeltagun, 1x Power Fist, 1x RazorBack w/TL Lascannon - 220 pts

Fast Attack 1: Land Speeder (1) w/ MultiMelta, Assault Cannon - 100 pts

Heavy Support 1: Baal Predator w/ HvyBltr Sponsons and Storm Bltr - 135 pts

Heavy Support 2: Baal Predator w/ HvyBltr Sponsons and Storm Bltr - 135 pts

 

OK, so it has less units, but they are definately beefier.  Both VAS are full 10 man, so can split into combat squads.  1st two Tacs are the same, picking up ML for AT support and overwatch.  3rd Tac has the twin link LC razorback for extra AT.  dropped one speeder and dropped the Launcher from the other (rules do leave it a possibility, but based on the chatter, I'm expecting it to get canked in an FAQ)

29 nasty assault marines plus a descent fire base.

Final thought was dropping one Baal for a DC Dread (my other fav model).  Thoughts

I am not a fan of the weapon mixes on the VAS.

SB are very iffy, you want your JPers to hug terrain, not toss out a few STR4 AP5 shots. Plus the flamer/melta mix... I generally feel a mix is bad, I like to specialize. Especially with fast movers like JP. I would make one squad melta, the other flamer.

and in all cases, you are losing the +1 A for not having 2 ccw.

while PF on tac squad vet serg is tempting, I think its kinda wasted points. 25 is premium rate for them, and I don't think you'll see them hit the opponent nearly as often as if they were both in a VAS squad. I am running mine VAS with 2 PF at 10 men strong. (1750 list)

look to terms, btw. I know we can only have one Donkeycannon, but you get a DC for free. (200 for the squad, no built in price over Marine dex) and it gives you some shooty, some assaulty and more "anti-tank" soaking. (people shoot Terms with the same guns you shot tanks with)

Very true. Remember though, that PDF was put out early. It's quite possible they'll clean up the wording just to invalidate this. Then again, it is GW...

Thats too bad, I really liked your duo speeders of death.

I'm also not a fan of buying storm bolters in the VAS. These are your REALLY good HTH troops- this will give you back the edge that we lost when furious charge went away. Giving them weapons that don't max out their assaults... isn't the best. A couple storm bolters also really isn't that much to your force.

As a blood angel player, keep the VAS good at what they do, assaulting. Storm bolters are crap. Since you're supposed to be close anyway, shoot the bolt pistol the guy comes with for free...so you lose 1 shot..you gain it back on the charge...no points used. I'd even be wary of taking the meltaguns, though it'll depend on your meta-game.

I don't mind putting a melta gun in group- every unit should have SOME way of taking down armor in a pinch. Yes, powerfists can play that roll, but if your thinking about assaulting some terminators, or a walker, it's always good to soften them up first.