Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is not exactly a conventional force, but I’ve noticed that a number of missions have objectives to be taken.  Considering how hard this would be to do this with a static force, I opted for this setup.  Given the lackluster hand-to-hand ability of IG, I intend to either deny said objectives with firepower or blast enemy troops from the contested area.  Once the enemy is dead, I have units capable of holding the ground with support.

This army might not be quite so effective in destruction derbies, but I think I would prefer objective based games anyway.  That being said, I’ve never played a game before and would appreciate any advice while I’m collecting models.  Thank you in advance for any input.

 

Doctrines:  Mechanized, Close Order Drill

 

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">HQ[/b]= 166pts

Command Platoon

JO, 4 Guards, Lascannon

Chimera w/ Multi-las, Hvy Bolter, Stubber, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight

 

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Troops[/b]=724pts

1^st Platoon

Command Squad

                        JO, 4 Guards, Lascannon

                        Chimera w/ Multi-las, Hvy Bolter, Stubber, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight

Alpha Squad

                        Sgt, 9 Guards, Lascannon

                        Chimera w/ Multi-las, Hvy Bolter, Stubber, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight

Bravo Squad

                        Sgt, 9 Guards, Lascannon

                        Chimera w/ Multi-las, Hvy Bolter, Stubber, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight

Armored Fist Squad

            Charlie Squad

                        Sgt, 9 Guards, Lascannon

                        Chimera w/ Multi-las, Hvy Bolter, Stubber, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight

 

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Fast Attack[/b]= 130pts

Hellhound w/ Stubber, Smoke Launcher

 

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Heavy Support[/b]= 480pts

Leman Russ w/Hvy Bolter, Improved Comms

Demolisher w/ Lascannon, Plasma Sponsoons, Rough Terrain Mod

Basilisk w/ Indirect Fire

 

<strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Points Total= 1500 [/b]

You dont really have enough guns to blast anything away.

The line squads need lascannons and plasma guns, not just lascannons. You will get to 24" or less to the opponent and double tapping with plasma will help you keep the number of guys that make it into HtH to a minimum.

Chimeras dont really give you mobility. With the new rules for entanglement, well new to this edition, transports are not really a good way to move troops around. They end up getting blown up and your troops have to sit there and get blown away while they remain pinned. Not very much fun. What chimeras really give you are cheap weapons platforms. Your load out on them is pretty good, not sure if you really need the smoke or the searchlights, and they get 9 decent shots from 36". Lots of solid firepower.

Even in mech gaurd your line squads will still deploy around your HQ for leadership. Your JO needs honorifica imperialis, a standard bearer, and Iron discipline. Iron discipline is a great doctrine and makes your guys stick around a lot longer once they start taking casualties. Definately add it as a doctrine and give it to your officers, for its price it's a great buy. Because your HQ is so important in making your guys stick around he'll get shot up. You probably want to hide him, so giving him a lascannon which requires line of sight is not that great of a plan. I'd drop the lascannon and use the points to buy some more plasma guns.

Your tanks have some odd upgrades. Rough terrain? Maybe in city fight, but in my experience not too terribly useful. Just makes the tank even more expensive. Not sure what your improved comms are for either, you dont have a large dropping contingent or anything along those lines. Maybe drop those too to pay for the plasma guns and ID you're lacking.

Your new list is pretty radically different and not mech anymore. I'll just show you a revised version of your first list in case you wanted a mech guard type.

Doctrines: Mech, Iron Discipline, Drop Troops, Close Order Drill

HQ

JO w/ HI, ID = 178
vet w/ standard
Chimera w/ Hull Hvy Bolter, Multilaser, Pintle Hvy Stubber

Troops

Platoon 1 = 556

JO w/ ID, 3 Plasma Guns
Chimera w/ Hull Hvy Bolter, Multilaser, Pintle Hvy Stubber
Squad 1 Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Chimera w/ Hull Hvy Bolter, Multilaser, Pintle Hvy Stubber
Squad 2 Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Chimera w/ Hull Hvy Bolter, Multilaser, Pintle Hvy Stubber

Armored Fist = 192

Squad 3 Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Chimera w/ Hull Hvy Bolter, Multilaser, Pintle Hvy Stubber

Fast Attack

Hellhound w/ smoke, searchlight (extra points) = 119

Heavy Support

Bassilisk w/ Indirect = 125
Russ w/ Hull hvy Bolter, Sponson hvy bolters = 155
Demolisher w/ hull hvy bolter, sponson plasma cannons = 175

total 1500

Pretty sure I did the points correct me, but you might as well double check.

I tweaked some things to get all the plasma guns in there while trying to retain as much of the original list as possible. Pretty similar but more effective.

Quick notes on the second list.

Very nice overall. Pretty clean everywhere. I'm not sold on the stormbolters on the JOs in your PHQs but I suppose they're pretty cheap.

Your rough riders are a little too large imho. I'd go with 6 men with hunting lances. They are a one trick pony, as after the first charge they dont do much of anything. Making them 10 men instead of 6 really just makes them more expensive. Most things that 6 can kill 10 will kill too. Ideally, the Riders will charge the enemy and kill some but most importantly tie them up if they dont. That way the enemy finishes them in their assault phase and you get to shoot and possibly charge with another unit in your turn. Great unit overall, but they are really fragile. Making them 10 instead of 6 just gives them a bigger footprint and increases the likelihood they get shot while not making them that much more effective. Remember, after the first charge they cant do much of anything so why add more guys?

The only problem with having 2 chimeras is that they will get shot to pieces. Having only 2 tanks visible to enemy weapons they will go down really fast. With a front armor of only 12 they will get hammered by lascannons pretty quickly. In my experience you want to take a whole bunch of tanks, or none at all. Either way I dont think that two chimeras is the way to go. If you want a mech feel take tons of them, the other list you had as 8 tanks, 5 of them chimeras. If you really want just a couple chimeras then switch some basilisks to cheapo 155 point russes w/ hull hvy bolters and sponson bolters. At least with some AV 14 vehicles your chimeras will get a couple turns of shooting before they get targeted, e.g. your russes will draw fire for them.

Thanks again. The reason for the massive change is that the chimera line was designed to snag objectives. If they don't provide the mobility I thought they would, I'd just as soon have line squads with las or autocannons. I was thinking of having half my squads with heavy weapons and the other half without. Half of them provide cover fire while the other half advance. Maybe have Conscripts with Commissars advancing (do they tend to gum up firing lanes?). Dunno. Have to rethink how to take objectives. I'm beginning to take a shine to the infantry horde idea, though.

On another note, how effective is Ursarkar Creed as an HQ unit? His special rules look highly tempting. Are there any drawbacks to taking him if I'm not taking any of the ancillary units for the Command Platoon?

Regardless of what you do, guard are pretty immobile. Just a byproduct of needing to stand still to fire a massive amount of heavy guns, which they tend to be pretty good at.

Chimeras can still snag objectives if you want them to. Typically they pick up a squad and make dashes later in the game. Plus you can always use them to redeploy squads if firing lanes become less desirable as the game wears on. They just tend to be better at pumping out shots rather than transporting troops around to different places. Really the only good transports in 4th ed are rhinos for sisters and falcons. Entanglement is nasty.

If you want squads to be advancing that's a fine way to take objectives, just dont use lascannon squads that really need to be shooting. Cheap Heavy bolter/ flamer squads are good to use for objective grabbing or even remnant squads with a flamer or other special weapon. Tanks are also a good bet. In your mech list the hellhound or russes work if they are still alive towards the end of the game.

Though really risky, an all-infanty all-dropping army can be pretty mobile. Since most of your squads will drop in they can just land on objectives instead of moving on them. Plus you end up taking lots of squads with only special weapons so they can move and shoot a bit more than guard usually can. I say it's risky because the mission wont always allow for it and it can be a really bad idea to get that close to lots of armies. I'd hate to see how fast my guard died if I did an all drop force against zilla nids. Then again, you never have to drop so there's some versitility.

Conscripts are okay. Generally I use them in 50 man squads wiht or without an independant commisar (depends if i want them to break or not) as a huge tarpit in front of my lines. Works pretty well. Worked better when screening units was possible and they pretty much stay at home now that I cant screen with them. I suppose it'd work fine to try and grab objectives with them, it'd just be slow. 6" a turn isnt that great, but I suppose you'll land on the objective eventually. If you do plan on taking them I suppose you'll need an independant commisar so they dont run away when they take the horrendous casualties they are bound to accumulate.

Try this mech variant 1498 points

Doctrines: Iron Discipline, Grenadiers, Drop Troops

HQ (242)
JO w/ HO, ID, pistol, ccw and Standard Bearer (81)
Chimera multi laser, heavy bolter, smoke, improved comms (108)
Sentinel w/ lascannon(55)

Elites
Veterans (5) 3x Plasma (or melta) (75)

Troops (418)
Stormtroopers  (10)  2x plasma (120)
Chimera multi laser, heavy bolter, smoke, searchlight(89)
Stormtroopers  (10)  2x plasma (120)
Chimera multi laser, heavy bolter, smoke, searchlight (89)

Fast Attack (281)
Hellhound smoke,extra armor (113)
Hellhound smoke, extra armor (113)
Sentinel w/ lascannon (55)

Heavy Support (484)
Demolisher w/ 3x HB, smoke, extra armor (168)
Leman Russ w 3x HB, smoke (158)
Leman Russ w 3x HB, smoke (158)

8 tanks, 2 walkers, 20 infantry
14 heavy bolters, 3 multilasers, 2 lascannons, 2 inferno cannons, 3 pie plates, 7 plasma guns. That's a lot of dakka at 1500 points! Nothing in this list has to sit still to remain effective. Only the Demolisher and Hellhounds have extra armor but they need to close with enemy to hit them. The command chimera has improved comms in case of escalation. The Grenadier chimeras have searchlights in case of dusk and dawn/ nightfights. Just don't get caught in an assault.

I'm not sold on the mech list. It's got tons of tanks but not many shots overall. I think anything that comes in hordes or any mech skimmer list like Tau or eldar will give you fits. Really your only solution to that would be to use the multilasers and hope for really high roles.

I think the lascannon sentinels can go. They're so fragile to be your only AT. I'd pull both lascannon sentinels and drop the stormies down to 8 men each. Their stats arent that great and there's no point to waste extra points on guys that cant carry special weapons. Sure they act as extra wounds, but if someone starts shooting your stormies their 4+ save wont really do that much.

Anyways, with the points from the sentinels and the 4 stormtroopers I'd add 2 more hardened vet squads exactly like the one you've got and upgrade the demolisher sponsons to plasma cannons. Plasma versus melta in the vets depends on how much tank popping you think you need. Probably 2 squads of meltas and one plasma, as you dont have much ranged tank popping, aka no lascannons.

I'm pretty sure your point costs are wrong on the hellhounds. They're 115 base if memory serves, so they shouldn't be 113 with upgrades.

If you're going to use stormies as your only infantry it seems like a waste to take a JO w/ HI, ID, and a standard. You've got no one that will be within his leadership bubble. Your grenadiers should probably be moving towards objectives on foot or in their chimeras, and it doesnt seem like a leadership bubble really helps any elements in your army. I'd give the HQ 4 plasma guns instead of the leadership upgrades for one less point.

Stormies = bleagh. Play with them if you love Kasrkin models and your opponents are nazis about WYSIWIG.

Stormies are pretty bad, I dont think anyone's arguing with that. Their only saving grace is infiltrate and deep strike, but when you take them as troops you loose that. The only, only advantage and only reason to take them is because they are the cheapest way to fill out troop slots.

With two squads of 6-8 men and 2 plasma guns you're paying 140-180 points to fill your required troop slots. Even a single minimal platoon will cost 160, and that's with no heavy or special weapons. At low points 1000, or even 1500, that can help you pump the number of tanks you can take if you dont want to use armored company or battle group.

Plus if your only troops are some stormies you dont need leadership bubbles, so you can make your command platoon go the suicide/ dropping variety.

Besides allowing you to pump the number of tanks their's really no reason to use them. I really like the kaskrin models so I play mine as hardened vets, and normally people dont have a problem with that.