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Hi all, first post so just wanted to say hello and give a quick introduction before my questions.

I'm an old school 40K (1st edition) player, basically grew up in the local GW store, and I just started up again after an 12 or 13 year hiatus. I stopped all things GW during 2nd edition 40K. Never even saw, heard or knew anything about the 3rd edition. So I'm coming back into this with 4th edition rules (wow, have things changed... and gotten WAY more expensive. Thank god for alternate, discounted online stores).

So, 40K seems pretty neat now. I like the expanded storylines and greater detail, but I have concerns about the limitations of FOCs. Either way, compared to the "uhhh, I guess?" rules of 1st edition 40K, it rocks.

The plastic miniatures are good, somewhat. The pose-ability is very cool, and it really helps with conversion pieces. It's also nice to no longer inhale pewter dust filing down a mold line (which have gotten worse?? wtf?) .

Anyways, I'm starting back up with a Black templars army (I had a white scars army, which are currently being stripped or getting their black base coat as they switch chapters ). I've heard there is some chagrin about BT cheese factors. Anyone here have any good experience with/against Templars? I'm curious if the grumblings are valid. Honestly, I picked them because of their storyline and concept. I've always thought the 40K mythos and story, especially the Imperium & Inquisition is some of the best science fiction ever thought up. Personally, I feel It puts the Matrix, and even Star Wars to shame.

Basically, I'm wondering if anyone would mind imparting some starting advice for an old time player who's basically new at this again. What to go for, what I'll really need for a good marine army, what to look out for, how to avoid "cheese" tactics, etc. If anyone has some black templars specific advice, that would be much obliged! I realize they're a close-combat army so I'm gearing it towards that strength.

One last question, are the stats for Grimaldus in the BT codex correct? He seems kinda... weak and lame. 2 wounds for someone who's supposed to be uber-tough even for space marine standards? Why not just get a master of sanctity and give him wargear goodies?

cheers,

george

(ps, I'll post some pictures in the modelling section soon of my first marines painted in nearly 11 years! It's been interesting coming back to this)

I think if you built the same Master of Sanctity with all of the add ons, he'd be about 5 or 10 points more. But I think he'd come with LD 10 too, so that's not a bad deal with the present rules for righteous zeal moves.

I started 40k in 3rd edition and built Black Templars. I still have the army, but it did get toned down somewhat from 3rd to 4th edition. To be fair, I think that the general consensus is that it's not as powerful as it used to be, and even compared to what you can do with a standard space marine list, is underpowered as well. But, at the same time, most of the flaks around here will also tell you that Space Marines aren't as competative as Godzilla Tyranids or the current Eldar list.

They are probably right. But age gives you a perspective to this, so it doesn't bother me as much as some of the more rabid members.

Good to see some more old-timers around here. I don't think you will have to worry much about being called cheesy with a black templar army. In general they are toned down from what a regular codex marine army is. Books can be written about what to do to avoid cheese tactics that your opponents may come up with so I'm not really going to go into that here (read though the various tactics posts here for more info). In general here is a quick rundown of what you'll really need to adjust to:

1) Force Organization Charts. Remember the all terminator armies of 1st edition? Well no more of that (mostly). The force organization chart pushes people to have more balanced lists than the old school rules of 25% of your points must be spent on troops and no more than 50% on vehicles or characters.

2) Characters are not what they used to be. Another good thing is that characters are not the be all end all of crazy killers anymore. Most can be brought down with a decent las cannon shot or two. Even if they are not, they are not going to win games on their own like they used to be able to do back in the day.

3) No more movement stat. Movement has been tossed out the door in favor of standard movement rates for everything (a change that I'm less fond of, but that's life). Vehicles also have standardized movement rates now too.

4) More ridged structuring for weapons that can go into a squad. Used to be you could pack a whole bunch of random heavy weapons into squads with specials and have all sorts of weird random guns strewn across your units. Not any more. Most squads have a basic weapon and sometimes a guy with a heavy and a guy with a special weapon. In general its a lot easier to keep track of for you and your opponent.

5) Faster games. No more spending 12 hours to fight a medium sized battle. A medium sized battle (1500 points) can be expected to take 3-4 hours on average.

I've been playing Templars since the 3rd ed. This is really an argument about cheeseyness in the 3rd edition incarnation, and it was a bit valid. You'll find that while the new Templars can be quite powerful they have a lot of restrictions. No whirlwinds or devestators can really get some.

Yeah, Grimaldus is pretty weak for what you pay. The new trend seems to be to built a normal character with armoury upgrades and give him a name and page of backround. Sweet model though. Tool up your own chaplain. Holy hand grenades are awesome and an entertaining reminder of the holy grail. Good advice from our fraters also.

thanks for the responses and clearing up the 3rd vs. 4th edition templars. Nice to hear the changes, especially the game speed and that characters are no longer all powerful.

Well, I'll scan through the old threads here for the more detailed tactics, etc. Thanks again.

cheers all

A horde list with him seems decent. Use that bubble of his to keep everyone falling forward on your opponents turn. Any other style of list would be a waste though.

And 2 wounds aint so bad, when you figure 2 wounds or 3, that inevitabel powerfist hit will kill him.

If you stick Grimaldus in a 20-man Horde Crusader Squad, they'll move an extra 4-9" every time they take a casualty (3 Cenobyte Servitors give +1 to your Righteous Zeal roll, which they'll automatically pass the morale check for because he makes the attached squad Fearless). Add that to your 6" move and 6" assault, and you suddenly have a 24-man beast CC squad that can get into assault from 21" away. Couple that with Grimaldus' ability to stand up after dying after passing a simple leadership check, and I'd say he's doing pretty good for 195 points. Sure, I'd rather see him with 3 wounds or Ld10, but I'm not complaining.

A couple other things you should note: Templars don't fall back toward their enemy when they fail a morale check any more. They use their Castellan's/Marshal's leadership, and get D6" additional movement if they pass. If they fail, they fall back normally. They take a check every time they lose a casualty, not just when they've lost 25%. This doesn't apply for Assault Marines or Bikes any more, so no more 3D6 inches of "fall back" towards your opponents.

Emperor's Champions have to pay for their vows, but are only mandatory in 750 points games or more. At 90 base points, it is arguable that they pack the most close combat whallop of any non-special character model in the game - for the amount of points you're paying, anyway.

Troops still work the same - Initiates are 16 points instead of 15, and Neophytes are 10 instead of the original 11. Veterans aren't as good anymore, since they cannot have a veteran sergeant that takes a third power weapon/fist.

Librarians are still gone, and Commanders and Chaplains are more expensive because of the prerequisite Crusader Seals (rerolls RZ). They are all so very good in CC though, and you should take full advantage of that.

CK