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Hi guys, just started playing (after starting on Rogue Trader in the eighties and taking a sizeable break..... :|

Looking to put together a 1500 point IG army, infantry heavy (but not over the top). I haven't actually played a game yet, so this is probably a right dog's breakfast, but any thoughts much appreciated;

 - Iron Discipline, Independant Commissars, Psykers, Priests, Conscripts

++HQ

SO with power sword, bolt pistol, company standard, medic, 2 veterans, psyker with HI and FW, Priest with Eviscerator

Chimera with Extra Armour, HBx2, Smoke, Searchlight

(these will use the Chimera to be a strong counter-assault unit)

2 x Sentinel with Las Cannon  - mobile tank hunters

++TROOPS

Platoon1 - HQ with shotgun, 3 x Grenade Launcher, 1 Lasgun

3 squads of 10, each with Veteran Serg. GL / GL / Flamer

Platoon 2 - HQ with boltgun, medic, 3x Plasma

2 squads of 10, each with Veteran Serg, GL / HB

Conscript Platoon - 30 conscripts, 3 flamers, Independant Commissar

++ HEAVY SUPPORT

Russ with LC, HB Sponsons and extra armour

++FAST ATTACK

2 AC Sentinels

1 ML Sentinel

 

Any words of experience / wisdom would be well received......

Sentinels die like flies - can you replace the FA slots with a Hell Hound?

The Grenade Launcher only excels at taking down light armour. Unless your oppoent only plays land speeders, try to swap them out for anything else (including more las gun toting IG). If nothing else, move the 3 plasma guns from the HQ to the line troops in the hopes of keeping them alive a few more turns.

Pick up either Drop Troops or Light Infantry, it's guards only access to troop movement for those senerios that don't allow you to sit all game.

Just some general IG tips.

Most people frown on the Grenade Launcher as the Plasma Gun is only 2 points more and can do much more.

Put heavy weapons in your basic squads, even if its just a Heavy Bolter.  Lets them have punch at range.

You don't need to upgrade to Veteran Sergeants, have one or two of your Platoon Command Squads as dedicated Leadership sources.  Said squads should have no additional gear as they are meant to be hidden.  Some players add a Mortar, while generally useless, if you have 10 points to spend it gives this squad something to do while hiding.

Your 3 Plasma HQ should use the Drop Troops doctrine for a one time suicide deep strike that should eliminate something worth more than its points.

Normally Guard aren't that great at close combat, even your tooled out Company Command Squad won't last very long.  Still, it seems like something fun to try.

Agree with the above point about sentinels, but you have 5 so hopefully they'll last a few turns.  Again something fun to try.  A mobile heavy weapons firebase that can play angles with blocking terrain.  Limit fire lanes and kill everything they expose themselves to.  As 5 independent units, they'll be harder to take down all at once.

I agree, drop the sentinels. But I don't think you should pick up heavy weapons in your squads, it just slows the army down. Put the heavy weapons (lascannon/ missle launcher) in you platoon HQs, they don't need to move that much. Especially since you have Vet Sgts in the squads.

Yes on the Hellhound. Also, think about swapping out the tank for a Basilisk. Also, if you're going to pay for a Medic for the Command Squad, put at least one plasma gun in there.

You don't need to deep-strike this army, play it. It's a good beginning, but I would suggest that you play a couple games with the sentinels proxied before you buy the models, they're not much good.

Ignore this completely...

Take a look at some of the other IG lists that have been posted over the years. Kadun's put you on the right track.

Welcome back to 40K!

The IG are a tough army to use, but i love them. I barely even touch my space marines any more. They are actually a pretty tough army if you get skilled with them. They arent top teir right now by any means, but you can deffinately win more than you lose against your average opponants.

Just a few tips from my experiance with IG.

You aboslutely HAVE to maximize your firepower. The gaurd die in droves, run away, arent very accurate, suck in HtH and have tanks that are not nearly as survivable as a lot of other armies'.

However, for the most part, everything is really cheap! So you need to maximize the potency of every squad in order to make up for your shortcomings. This is true of any competetive list, but doubly so with gaurd. Therefore, only take the best weapons. You can bring loads of them, but you will need loads fo them. No grenade launchers, they are garbage. Only take plasma, meltas of flamers as your special weapons. they are better in all respects.

First of all, for your doctrines:

Iron Discipline is fantastic, and will undoubtedly be worth the points. Probably the best doctrine in the list, IMO.

Independant commisars are, IMHO, not so hot, and only really useful when coupled with conscripts which you are doing and ill get to that one later. Really, commisars just arent that good as they spcialize in HtH and providing leadership. Gaurd fundamentally suck in HtH so spending points on a HtH unit is points wasted, and your HQ should take care of your Ld nedds cheaper. SO honestly, unless you want them for fluff reasons, i would ditch them.

Psykers just suck big time. I would drop them unless, again, you really want them for fluff reasons.

Priests arent good for the same reason as commisars. They are a HtH unit. Your HQ should NOT be getting into HtH. Any gaurd unit that gets charged by anything other than other Gaurd, Tau or Grots, write off for dead. Priests jus tdont really fit in the IG beause they have to join the HQ.

Conscripts are fun and good for charge blocking and objective holding and for just aking up space, but honestly, the points are better spent elsewhere. They get pricey and are only useful as a utility. They will mos tlikely NEVER get their points back unles sthey manage to plop onto an objective and never run because of a commisar and numbers.

Other doctrines to think about: Drop troops which is a stellar doctrine for gaurd HQ and Vet units. Jungle FIghters which works really well with Drop Troops to give squads access to a heavy flamer. Vet Squads, as hardened vets are an excellent and cheap tool for IG. Special weapon squads, which again, works great with drop troops. Lastly, close order drill is excellent as it is free, and gives an In and Ld bonus plus, again, works great with drop troops.

Ill go through your list one force org slot at a time:

HQ

Your's is tooled up for HtH but the sad truth is this: a gaurd HQ HtH squad is expensive and largely ineffective. Any dedicated assault unit will crush them. IG have low In, low toughness, low armor and weak weapons. that equals a bad points investment. Most any assault unit will strike first and chew them up before they an even strike back. The HI and FW on your psyker is a nifty trick, but hardly ever works plus it costs an arm and a leg.
IG HQ should do one of two things IMO: Drop from the sky and blow something away, or hide and provide leadership for your line squads. Which way you go depends on your overall strategy. If you want lots of line squads in a shooty army, take the Ld HQ choice with a JO, HI, standard, and iorn discipline. Cheap, effective and efficient. Also, due to the chance of getting an Alpha level mission, this is more reliable.
Or, if you are like me and use dropping IG, take an HQ with a JO, and either 4 melta or 4 plasma. that way they can drop in, destroy something that costs far more than they do and get a large investment back on their points. I love these cheap little units.
You may want to ditch the chimera. Since it is one of two tanks, it will draw a LOT of anti tank fire, and with armor 12, it wont last long.

The Sentinals are fun, but not that effective unless you take lots of armor to draw the enemies fire power away from them. Since you only have two tanks, every other anti tank wepaon on the baord is aiming for these guys, which is bad. actually, pretty much anything aiming at these guys is bad since they die so easily. Put the las cannons in your line squads, keep the sentinals cheap, with multi lasers, which are pretty good on side armor.

Special weapon squads are good in your HQ as they can drop in and take out hidden vehicles or units like crisis suits, bassies, or defliers.

Troops:

Your HQ here should follow the same rules as above. Either leadership or dropping. It works best.

Your line squads need to do one of two things: drop from the sky and kill something or sit and shoot. They way you have them will only bring you misery. Walking gaurd forward with one grenade launcher is just not a good idea. Nearly every gun in the game will kill your guys on a 3 with no armor save. That means if you walk them forward they will get mowed down horribly. Plus, when they do get to the enemy, the las guns and GL will be very ineffective.
Either give them a las cannon and plasma gun, or a special weapon and a heavy flamer and drop troop them. You will get best results this way. They can sit in cover and take advantage of the Ld of their officer and shoot like hell, or drop down and balst something or take an objective. Both squad set ups cost them same amount of points.
Ditch the Vet Sarge, he adds nothing really that cant be gained by Iron Discpline or Close Order drill

The conscripts are OK, and i see where you are going with this, a hoard of IG walking forward, but any decent army out there will easily wipe your line squads out before they get anywhere near the enemy lines and the weapons you chose doesnt give them any teeth.

Heavy Support:

Either take lots of tanks, or none. If you only have one or two, it is garaunteed to get wasted. Any normal army will have a lot of anti tank weapons, and they will all be aiming right at your Russ. The IG really benefit from their tanks, but if you only want one, take a Bassie. He can hide and lob shells on hidden targets which is very useful.
If you do take a Russ, go with all heavy bolters. That way if you lose the battle cannon, the tank will still have an effective anti infantry roll. The lascannon conflicts with the beavy bolters in terms of target selection. Plus three heavy bolters is cheaper. Also, always take extra armor and smoke.

Fast Attack:

again, the sentinals drop like flies and really do need other bigger, meaner targets to draw enemy fire. These guys are your only real anti tank and they die so easily. if they go down, your only three las cannons are gone and now you have NO anti tank capability.

If you rethink the few tanks theme, Hellhounds are superb tanks IMO. Anything not wearing power amror, and mos tlight vehicles, get shredded by these guys. Plus they can grab objectives and are actaully fairly survivable if you have a lot of other tanks to dilute fire.


If you want an infantry heavy army with light tank support, which to be brutally honest is a flawed concept due to the mechanics of the game, i would go with this:

Jungle Fighters, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, Drop Tropps, Hardened Vets

HQ:
JO with HI, Standard, Iron Dis.
2 x Fire Support Squads, close order drill, 3 x Autocannon

Troops:
JO, Iron Discipline, Close Order Drill
5 x Squads, Plasma Gun, Las Cannon, Close Order Drill

JO, Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, 4 x Melta
3 x Squads, Drop Troops, Flamer, H. Flamer, Close Order Drill

Elites:
2 x Hardened Vets 5 man, Drop Troops, 3 x Plasma
1 x Hardened Vets 5 man, Drop Troops, 3 x Melta

Heavy:
Basilisk, indirect fire, improved comms


That comes out to just about 1500 points, gives you FAR more anti tank / monstrous creature fire power, more punch Vs MEQ, more bodies to absorb casualties, strong leadership and mobility.

The anti tank weapons are much more resiliant and more numerous as well. Plus, you have good anti infantry with the flamer/heavy flamer combos, and the autocannons give you both anti infatry and anti light to medium vehicle ability.

Well, i hope that helps, and welcome back to the Hobby.

Actually, Reecius was spot on about everything. IG NOOB made a very long post full of some pretty bad advice.



The reason a list is done a million times is because it is effective. Welcome to Dakka, a site dedicated to deveoping lists that are effective.



Are you kidding me? You turned a 70 point LD bubble with rerolls, thanks to a standard, into a 205 point sink. Not to mention you're advocating CC with a T3, S3, I3 Independent character with 4 ablative wounds and a 5+ (?) Sv. Not to mention putting a PF on him to make sure he goes last AND at a wopping S6... Some of the worste advice I've ever read about IG.

This might be great at Warseer or B&C... not here...



Yeah, why would you want to save a slot on the FOC? I do agree about 1 Sent per slot though. One of the better pieces of advice you gave.



BS2 heavy bolters huh? This is a tarpit unit, not trigger pullers. If anything, they should have a couple of Flamers to negate their pathetic BS. I'm not even a fan of Conscripts anyway as you end up using 2 Doctrines to make a single unit relatively effective. There are better ways to spend your points and doctrines.



If these guys are not providing LD bubbles, they should be dropping suicide units with 3-4 Plasmas OR 3-4 Meltas. If they are providing bubbles, they should not have weapons as if you can see the enemy to shoot, they can also see you and will readily target your LD bubble.



C'mon! Again, are you kidding?
Vet Squad- 75 points
3 Vets with either plasma OR Melta
2 Vets with lasguns
Drop Troops

Which do you think is more cost efficient/ effective?




Then let's make them cheaper and take the Las cannon off. No sense in selecting an AT weapon for a harasser right? Not to mention, if you're going for side shots in the 1st place, there's no need for a LC. Dropping Sentinels are another option (for free) to set up a shot, regardless of weapon fit. Granted, there's no insurance on this, but a dropping Sent seems more likely to get to take a shot than trying to navigate for a few turns. Obviously terrain will make your option more or less effective.

1 Chimera? That's 1 way to get the ?CC commander? with chimera targeted and entangled. Seriously, it's never a good idea to field 1 APC. I suggest 3-4 minimum so as to saturate the field with targets. This way losing one doesn't jack your plan. The IG should have some redundancies built in.

I'm sure I came off like a jerk, but I can't stand to see horrid advice about army lists being shelled out. As I said before, the "assault" IG armies might be cute for other sites. Dakka prides itself in effective lists. With the prices we pay for minis, I can't sit idly by while RT is fed crap. In closing, read what Reecius said again. He gave some good advice in there.

I appreciate all the advice, folks?.

As a player getting back into the hobby after 20 years (I had the original box of Kev Adams space orks that came out in 1987 and a couple of packs of RTB01? ) it?s hard enough to get a grip with the mechanics of the current edition of 40K, let alone make sense of conflicting views of tactics from seasoned players.

I guess part of this comes down to personality. One set of tactics / army selection may be ?right? for the style of play of one individual, but be totally different for someone else who thinks / plays a different way. The only answer is to get out there and have a few games. But pointers like this are massively helpful, especially when it comes down to spending my hard-earned brass on models which may soon prove to be useless. I don?t know, how much £ are five sentinels?.

Also, fluff comes into it, and dictates army selection and tactical approach. As much as people are praising the merits of drop troops, it?s just not an idea that appeals to me. I?m going for a very primitive feel to my army, a backward, superstitious world (using vostroyan miniatures with a totally different paint scheme and background) which is why I wanted to be infantry heavy, not many tanks, and not much in the way of "flash" technology. In this context, drop troops just don?t appeal / fit

I still think I can take what everyone has said and apply it to this background though, and not die horribly as often as I might have done. I need to drop the grenade launchers, for a start?!

Again, thanks for the advice.....

I have to respectfully disagree with you on several points IG Noob.

Im sure you are a good player and have had plenty of success with your IG, but the list you posted is just flat out inferior to the list I posted. If the two lists went head to head, your's would be crushed. I dont say that to be mean, its just truth. I play my IG in a really competetive enviornment in the LA area with guys who are very very good players, winning in adepticaon, high rankings in the GT's, regular tournament players, etc. they are serious gamers who handed me my backside when i moved here (and a much needed slice of humble pie). Only the toughest lists make it around here.

That said, i have had a lot of success with my IG against tough generals with savage army lists. Im not the end all by all of IG players, im sure there are plenty of guys on these boards who have forgotten more agout IG than i now know, but I am confident that the basic principles i laid out are sound.

Your list is flawed for several reasons.

One: An IG dedicated HtH HQ is just a bad bad bad idea. You put a power fist on a guy that has a 5+ armor save save and tough 3. That means he will almost certainly be killed before he swings. And why would you ever take a Senior Officer? You can give a JO an HI and have the same stat line for 5 points less.
Secondly, the only thing that your squad can assault and hope to kill are very weak shooting units. The squad only has 1 power weapon tha twill most likely never even swing. Even a SM las plas squad would most likely knock your assault unit below scoring and stay in the fight for several turns. The points invested in the unit could be better spent elsewhere.
Plus, Chimeras as assault delivery vehicles are just plain bad, and even worse when you only have one. That thing will be destroyed very quickly, especially if used as you describe on its own, exposing its weak side armor.
If you are looking for a strong HtH unit, dont look to your HQ, rough riders are far far more effective in the IG list. Or, take allies if you must, a squad of Grey Knight Termies is great, as well as a Callidus assasin or a cheap Eversor hiding in your lines. Plus an inquisitor gives you access to mystics and a psychic hood, which gives you deffense against one of the biggest threats to IG SAFH armies: deep strikers and pyskers. The emperor's tarrot is great too.

Also, if you put your leadership bubbles out in front where they can be shot, any smart player will target those 5 man squads first, getting easy VP's, and removing your iron discipline and a heavy weapon. That is very very bad. If you put that command HQ behind your line squads they have a rerollable Ld9 and can regroup below half and ignore the -1 for being below half strength. that is better ld than space marines. And ensures that your las plas units will stay in the fight MUCH longer, giving you more return for your investment in those heavy weapons (and that is all an IG line squad is, a 10 wound las cannon and plasma gun). Plus, they are a scoring unit that wont give up its VP's and will hold your table quarter, side, etc. Exposing the HQ units for one crappy BS 3 missle launcher shot a turn is just not smart.
For the points you spend on the ineffective HQ HtH squad, you could take 2 more las plas squads. You only have 4, the list i posted has 5, are the 5 i have are more likely to stay in the fight.

Also, the shooty conscript squad is the deffinition of inefficiency. Adding points onto the unit with the independent commisar only makes them worse, as you have wasted even more points on the unit. They will statistically hit 2 times a turn with their heavy bolters. That, in my mind, is a waste of 165 points. You could get a Leman Russ for that which would be infintely more effective. Also, n one will ever target this unit unless they have nothing else to shoot at because it is no threat, therefore making the commisar worthless.

The Demolishers are good, although i prefer only one to force target priority checks and soak up firepower. The russ is actually the better tank in mind because of its increased range. The demolisher has to get close to use its main weapon, which all too often puts him in range of meltas and HtH weapons that will destroy him. ALthough, when a Demolisher is having a lucky streak, they are just brutal.

Your Vet Squad is highly inefficient. You run these guys one of two ways: drop troop at minimum size with three special weapons and blow something up, or max size with a las cannon and three plamsa guns, infiltrate them into a good firing position and shoot. The way you post it is just not a good use of points.

The rough riders are a very good unit, but they should not be out running around the battel field. they still die like gaurd. If you use them, they are pure counter assault. Hide, and when enemy assaulters make it to your lines, they come in and dish out some str 5 power weapon love. Just be careful, because chargin them into cover is a good way to give your enemy 55 points. One point you made that is true though, is moving them behind the Demolishers for cover and threatening any units that would get close to them. I have done this before as well and it works. In alpha missions i also do this with my 4 special weapon command squads that cant deep strike. It actaully works very well in getting them close enough to use their weapons, but i also use 6 tanks, so they have a lot of LOS blocking units to move behind.

The sentinal is an overpriced unit. It just is. They should be about 10 points cheaper in my mind. But if you are going to use them as flanking harrasers, give them auto cannons. They are cheaper and more reliable. Its a shame the unit it over costed becuase i love the model.



The long and the snort of it is, the list your posted is hugely less efficient. Not to be a jerk, but that is just the truth.

And that is very true. You just have to play the game and what works for one man, may not be your cup of tea.

The only things i can really tell you, dont try and walk gaurd at anything! hahaha, trust me, it is an idea that will just end in lots of dead gaurd. An imperial gurad soldier in the game is just really weak.

If you want to go all shooty with no deepstriking, then go for it, it is actualy more relaible as when you roll an Alpha level mission (a mission that does not allow infiltrating or deepstriking) the units that were meant to do those things get really reduced in effectiveness. However, it is a lot less flexible army.

Just make sure you take something that can target hidden units like a basilisk, otherwise they will make your life hell. Tau suits that can move shoot then move again will be your nemesis in a static gaurd SAFH.

As for the close combat aspect, if you are going all shooty, you NEED the ld bubbles. Turst me. Use the rough riders for counter assault, as they are good at it, cheap and fit the theme of a primitive world quite well.

I agree that fluff should be a part of your army, i have backstory to all of mine, but with Gaurd, you kind of have to power game with them or you will lose all the time. Its not like Necrons were even a bad army is still really tough. With IG, if you spend a lot of time and money making an army that has a cool theme, but isnt very optimized, you will get beaten very badly a lot. It is not all that much fun to lose all the time, at least not to me.

But its your army, and half the fun is learning as you go and refining your ideas and tactics, so good luck and have fun with it.

I dont see how you think your list is more effective.  Deep striking only works against 2/3 of the time and then only on open tables, and then only against people who deploy their troops poorly.   Also deepstriking doesnt come in till the second turn so any decent player would use the first two turn on which atleast 1/5 of your list is off the table to gain supperior map control and posistion his troops so that when your drop troopers come down odds are they will either die by falling into difficult cover or die by falling onto troops, and if not 1/3 of the time when they do land correctly the odds they will take out 75 points is preaty much impossible.  Against your best possible non tank target, terminators/winged hive tyrant you would get your points back but against a normal list theres no way 6 plama shots from 5 guys who are out of position and now completley uselsess after this turn can get 75 points.  Against my army the best you could do would be to drop on the vet squad and then because they will always infiltrate into cover you will only kill 2.25 of them which = 16 pts.  Then next turn your out of position squad could be murdered by my "worthless conscript squad" Wich at 24" (somthing you would have probably dropped into) could take out the squad easily killing 6 guardsman when they only need to kill 5.  And if there is deepstrike then your bassalisk will not last long because unlike drop striking vets that have to drop with with 12" and if they deepstrike out of that range are completley uselss, the sentinal can drop up to 48" away to some safe place and then move to take out the bassalisk, and then unlike vet squads it remains usefull due to its ability to move and shoot 48".  Infact I think the only time your list would win is if we played with 0 terrain and I wasnt allowed to to block your deepstrike by bunching up certain troops in certain places.  The list that you say is supperior to mine has no coherancy and is completly static and its been done a million times before. 

Reecius if you honestly think your static, poorly proportioned, and in coherant list is better then mine, then you have never played a decent opponent.  And I just want to say that over course over 4 years of playing IG ive tried all the cookie cutter strategies including the 3 x 6 rough riders 4x 2 las plas infantry 3 x demolishers 3 x dropping vets and to be honest against decent opponents those lists suck.  The list I put up is preaty much the same list I used to win first place in a 30 person tournament except my list used 2 x heavy bolter squads instead of the conscripts and a lascannon squad instead of the sentinals.  And durring that tourny of course I played against a cookie cutter IG and contrary to what reccius would have you beleive, he surrendered on the fourth turn. 

You are compeltely entitled to your opinion, and i respect that. And you may be the best IG player the world has ever seen, i dont know. All i am saying is that in terms of points efficiency, your list was lacking. I didnt mean anything against you personally.

I suppose i have never played against any decent opponants, considering in my regular gaming group here we have an adepticon ironman champ, second and third place finishers in the Adeption Gladiator, the Adepitcon team tourny winners, and several of the top placing guys at the vegas GT, the LA GT winner form a few years past, and not to mention the countless local RTT's these guys play at every month. They are all hardcore tourny players and very serious about WINNING games. I guess that would certainly qualify my local competition as poor players. Also, most of the guys i play post on these boards, they can vouch for themselves.

Also, you obviously dont know how deep striking works if you think it is ineffective. You should refrain from posting about something if you dont know how it works. I recomend trying it first, then commenting on it, you may be pleasantly surprised at just how amazingly good it is in a guard list.

You dont drop a 4 melta gun or 4 plasma gun squad near an IG infantry squad, that would be a very poor idea. You drop them next to those two demolishers and destroy them, getting more than double your points back. I could care less if your useless conscript squad (and yes, it is useless. a total waste of points) kills them after words (and they can only shoot one squad at a time, out of the 7 that will come down), that is why they are called suicide squads. Also, yes, they come in starting on turn 2, but with improved comms, the infantry platoon has a 75% chance of coming in, that is 4 units right there, plus half the vets. That means i will most likely have 5 or 6 squads the first turn. when theis army drops in, it cripples you. Trust me, in my list i play with about 10 dropping squads but that only take up 3 force org slots. that means i regularly get all of them coming in turn 2 including their 10 meltas, 6 plasma, 6 flamers, 4 heavy flamers and 2 demo charges, they hit so hard when they drop in, the opponants ability to counter punch is greatly deminished. Most games I have played, i take out a huge chunk of the other army on the turn my boys drop in, plus there are so many little squads on the board they cant all be targeted, ensuring at least one more turn to fire for a lot of them. And in one or two turn of firing, the meager amount of firepower you have in your list (most of which is anti tank) will not take out 50 gaurd in cover, who also wont run away due to my cleverly hidden HQ units that keep them in the fight.

Your line squads would get anhilated by the dropping flamer squads. I know this from experiance because i use these guys in every game, not just hypothetically like in your poorly executed theroyhammer example. They drop and wipe out a squad not in power armor. They are highly effective. Yes, you lose a squad once in a while to a bad scatter, but that is why you have lots of them.

Your HtH squad would be eliminated by my line las plas squads and then get entangled in the wreck of their exepnsive vehicle. But honestly, you think that squad is good? it is expensive, not very durable, and hits like an old woman even when it does charge. You get 8 str 3, WS 3 attacks and 5 str 6 power weapon attacks on a guy that is toughness 3 and has a 5 up save. How is that good? You are hadning your opponant points on a silver platter. Those points could have bought you another tank and had points to spare. What do you honestly think will get more points back, that squad or a leman russ? Plus the Russ is cheaper.

Your sentinals would have nothing to shoot but guard, where with a lascannon against a guardsman in cover, you would kill about one every three turns, and would in return drop like flies to lascannon fire.

All this is besides the point, as you cant play a theoretical game. if you think your army is superior then fine. Your opinion is just as valid as mine. I dont want to start a flame war with you.
If you live in the LA / Orange Coutny area of california and would like to get a friendly game in, i would be more than happy to oblige. I play gaurd vs gaurd all the time and have never lost yet. Even in alpha level mission where i cant deepstrike i have come out on top, but when its not Alpha, its usually a total wipe out. But then, maybe im just lucky.

Lastly, there is a reason no one takes lists like you propose to tournaments, and tha tis because they are not all that great. Lists like the one i proposed may be more common but that is because they work. I thought that would be self evident.

Reecius- My compliments for taking the time to politely educate this guy. As you know, your guidance has been far superior.

Hopefully some of it sinks in.

Rogue Trader- Do yourself a favor and definitely build whatever kind of list you like. That's what the Hobby's about afterall. Just remember that certain choices are effective and others are complete wastes of points, time and money.

Reecius, my bad, I didn't mean to come off so strong.  I'm sure you have played with some great players and from the way you defended your point im sure your a good player too.  However I still see a few flaws in your reasoning and maybe you could help explain them to me. 

As for the flamer drop I get that part and I use that all the time since it's one of guards only ways of clearing large ammounts of low armour save troops in cover that are positioned too far away for hell hounds to take care of.  But this squad only costs 64 pts. and brings 4 flamers to bear where as your plasma gun drop troops cost 75 points.

Alright so heres where I have my problem.  All I would have to do to block your strategy is put the rears of my tanks in difficult terain like a forest and use them as heavy bolter turrets.  I dont see how you could beat that with regularity.  Your plamsa gunners could not drop at the rear because they would die on impact, and if they dropped to the side they would get 4 hits with a 4/6 chance of glancing which imo does not make up for their cost. 

That means that the only things that could drop to take out my tanks would be your melta squads and they would have to land within 6" to make up there points.  The odds that they will die are low but the odds that they wil scater out of 6" is slightly less then 2/3 times.

Oh and one more thing, that command squad hth thing realy does work.  The key is to use it to take out weak points in your enemys line.  To explain that Ill just give you an examples of when the squad has made up for its points + some.

Example one.  My opponent has 2 6 man spacemarine sqauds on his left my right flank.  The majority of his force is on his right flank and the majority of my troops are on my left flank (matching his troops).  I send a hellhound and a chimera around my right flank, and get the first shot on his two squads.  I kill a preaty adverage 3.  Next turn his two squads take out my hell hound with their lascannons.  Next turn I move my Chimera up to 12" away from the two squads and pop the smoke.  Both of his squads shoot at the chimera and destroy a weapon and stop it from shooting next turn.  Then on my turn I pivot the chimera and drop off the command squad.  They move 6" and fire their double melta gun shots plus the rest of the shots killing 1 more space marine.  Then I assault in close order drill form so my strikes hit at the same time.  Anyways he kills one guardsmen which is healed by the medic and my forces kill none then the comander strikes killing both of the marines (oh and by the way hes a senior officer not a heroic senior officer thats why i didnt use HI) which is standard mathmatics.  Then I consolidated into the other marine squad.  On his turn he killed 2 guardsmen but because it was the first turn of combat and the medic was out of base to base he only killed one and the troopers striking at the same time killed one marine.  Then my commander got a slightly higher then adverage roll and killed 3 marines instead of his standard 2 leaving 2 marines left.  Then next turn was daja vu his marines killed one guardsmen only this time the medic could not heal it so i let the medic die, and my soldiers killed 0 spacemarines and my hero killed 2 wiping out a total of 200 points of space marines.  Then my commander and the two meltagun guys got back in the transport and went on the blow up a vidicator with 2 melta gun shots to the rear for a total of 300 + points gained and surrvived the mission at above half strength with a transport below half strength giving my opponent only 48 victory points.

Anyways I know that was a bit of a lucky example but then again not to an extream as marines suck at close combat, but you could see how that squad could be used well.  The key was that the rest of his army had their line of sight blocked by trees.  I think the moral of this story is that somthing that looks bad on paper can actualy be good in practice if you take advantage of your opponent and the map. 

Again reecius sorry that I came off so strong, and flag stfu.

 

 

Posted By IG Noob on 06/11/2007 10:52 PM

Alright so heres where I have my problem.  All I would have to do to block your strategy is put the rears of my tanks in difficult terain like a forest and use them as heavy bolter turrets.  I dont see how you could beat that with regularity.  Your plamsa gunners could not drop at the rear because they would die on impact, and if they dropped to the side they would get 4 hits with a 4/6 chance of glancing which imo does not make up for their cost. 

I'll have to check my rulebook, but I'm fairly certain deep striking into difficult terrain has no effect.  Only scattering into impassible terrain, other units, or off the table eliminates the unit.

Re: Close Combat HQ:
I know it was being debated a while ago because of the wording in the codex, but isn't the officier of the command squad an independent character?  If so, he can be singled out in combat, at initiative 1 (w/ powerfist) and T3 5+ save, I wouldn't think he wold survive to get his hits in.

Wow, IG Noob (and never was a poster better named) there's so much wrong with your post that I don't know where to begin.

And in fact, I won't. I fear I wouldn't be able to stop myself from flaming you and that wouldn't be fair.

Suffice it to say that your lack of knowledge of IG tactics is forgiveable, your lack of knowledge of the basic rules is not.

Assaulting out of a vehicle? Dangerous terrain killing deepstrikers? Woods always blocking LoS? Ignoring IC rules? Using COD incorrectly (I'm pretty sure)? Using a Medic incorrectly (I'm pretty sure)? Transports being below half strength?

I politely suggest you study the rulebook and IG Codex a little more thoroughly before posting any more thoughts on IG tactics or lists, please. Thank you.

@IG Noob

No worries man, i dont take anything posted on the net personally.

But you were wrong on a couple of issues as others have pointed out.
You only die if you deep strike on impassible terrain or onto enemy troopers. It was debated but I also feel that landing on your own troops klls deepstrikers as well. I actually prefer to land in cover as it gives my boys more of a chance to survive. Plus the jungle fighters actually comes in handy as i can drop them in woods were they become much more efficient.

As for dropping Melta squads not hitting very often? Think about this. If you place a squad to land 1" away from the rear or side of a tank, the average scatter is 7", which will cause you to overshoot the vehicle (as most are roughly in the realm of 5" by 6" in size) and land on the other side. The same goes for squads, when you use the flame drop infantry squads, you get as close as possible and play the odds. most times if you scatter towards your target, again you over shoot them and land behind them.

In my experiance the worst thing that happens is you scatter too far away from the target. But if you place the Melta squads right next to the tank, they will still most likely be in range unless they go straight back 12". What the means, is that more often than not, you land well within range of your weapons. Even if you are not within 6", you are still AP 1, and the side armor of most vehicles is 12 or less, the rear is usually 10. So even at long range, statistically, you will still damage your target the majority of the time.

I use about 10 dropping squads and in most games i lose maybe 1 squad to a bad scatter, the worst i ever had, i lost three squads. But big deal, there went 260 points which stinks, but the survivors still took out far more points than were lost and the game was won. It is a risk, but it is FAR more reliable than trying to walk or drive towards your opponant to use your numerous special weapons.

The plasma squads are for use against MEQ's, termies and MC's, not so much against tanks. But if you drop them in the rear, they will still take out most vehicles.

The medic being effective in HtH if you keep him out of base to base is a pretty grey area, but i know a few people that play it that way. It is up for debate though.

Also, by RAW, IIRC, you cant pivot a vehicle, disembark, then move. disembarking occurs before the vehicle moves, but i dont have my book in fornt of me here.

But look at it this way, instead of the HtH HQ, if you took a leman Russ and a Ld providing cheapie HQ, which do you think would give you more return on your investment?

But again, everyone is free to play in their own way and if that squad works for you then cool.