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Greetings! After pouring over the BA list I have made the following observations about the list. Overall, I think this list will end up still being a top-tier list. While there have been points increases to various heavy weapons resulting in about a 30% drop overall in firepower output, the characters of the BA are probably some of the killiest characters to hit a codex in quite a while, and that alone can make up for it. But enough about that. Onward with the review.

HQ's:

Dante: While clocking in at 200pts, Dante is actually 5pts cheaper than he was in the previous codex. Additionally, he also receive boosts to his abilities in terms of what he gives to the BA army. Firstly, he is now Fearless. Secondly, he is Inspiring, which allows any BA unit within 12" of him count as having preferred enemy vs. the opponent. That is a great ability that allows an assault marine based army the extra punch in close combats. I see Dante being a really good HQ choice for BA armies that will be using a lot of assault marines.

Mephiston: While going up in points from the previous codex, it really doesn't matter since this guy is the tool box of a BA army. The ability to cast 3 powers a turn and use his force weapon, mephiston is definitely a beast. Out of all the BA characters I see him as being the one most used since his flexibility is too good...regardless of the points he costs. He is simply a valuable character that has the versatility to work with any type of BA build. Look to see this guy be in every battle, much like how Eldrad is with Eldar.

Tycho: While only going up in 1pt in cost from the previous codex, he has gained +1 Wound and +1 Ld to his statline. While not overly good at any one thing, he is a cool model. He is one of the cheapest of named characters. I really don't see him being used much and honestly I am disappointed that they didn't have a Death Co. version of him in the new codex. For those that don't know, during Armageddon Tycho succumbed to the black rage and Lemartes lead him into battle. He finally died defending a breach in a hive vs. orks and held the orks at bay single handedly.

Corbulo: Corbulo has received the most dramatic points adjustment of all the named characters. He has had a 56pt point decrease while gaining +1 Wound, +1 BS, and +1 Ld to his statline. Additionally the Red Grail provides him with an invulnerable save. Not too shabby for the points cost. I see Corbulo being the basis of many BA armies and perhaps the 2nd HQ choice for others. His Red Grail ability works well with a Mech BA army since it boosts the normal units within 12" giving them Furious Charge. Combining him with a terminator heavy army would work well since they can march with him and get furious charge.

Lemartes: Yet another BA character that gets a substantial change in points cost. this time for the worse. While going up in cost, Lemartes gets a boost to his statline by gaining a wound. However he loses his Iron-willed and Rigid Discipline abilities that he used to have. Overall, this is a 'meh' character and no more useful than any other standard chaplains. In smaller games he may be useful, but a regular chaplain is still cheaper and has the same abilities sans the deathmask.

Chaplain: Like the DA codex, gone is the Master of Sanctity versions of a chaplain. Only the 2 wound kind remain as standard choices. However, that doesn't mean that they are not useful. While attached to a Death Co., they still serve as a cheap Litanties of Hate delivery system that will ultimately increase the rending chances for Death Co. If BA players are playing for a big Death Co. and want to keep them in control, rest assured that the first HQ choice they will be thinking about will be a chaplain. Although if you don't want a chaplain, Corbulo can also control the Death Co. as well. So really it comes down to player choice.

Librarian: No more 3 wound versions either. However, the neat thing about these guys is that their psychic power allows them to fly even if they are wearing terminator armor. Sadly though, Mephiston is far too superior to even make these guys worth taking and in my opinion are the weakest HQ choice to take in a BA army. There just is too many other choices that are better.

Captain: This character only comes in a 3 wound version and has the typical options. While cost economical for smaller games, the named characters bring more to the table...although I see a Corbulo and Captain with Lightning Claws combo being quite effective.

Honorguard: While not taking up a slot on the Force org chart, this unit has a lot of options to make this a pricey, beefy...but most definitely a deadly unit. I see this unit working well with a drop podding BA list or even the Mech/ Marching list with Terminators and Corbulo (ignoring 2 failed saves a turn is handy).

Elites:

Death Co: Like before they do not take up a choice in the force org. slots. The great thing about DC is that you now can be assured of a fixed size and not have them come from units, stripping them of squad sizes. Because of this, I see the return of terminators BA lists. While losing the ability to take PF, and power weapons it is made up for that by getting rending. While potentially better in combats vs. units with a WS, they lose a bit of their bite versus vehicles. This can be mitigated if the player gives the a chaplain a Power fist...ideally the chaplain is there for the Litanies of Hate anyways, and really isn't a major boost to the squad unless taking a PF anyways. He really is only there for that and to control them.

Terminator squad: Welcome back terminators to the BA! While this unit choice was pretty much hands off to most top-tier BA lists in the previous codex, the terminators are back and are a viable choice again. There are several ways that these guys can be used in a BA list, the main one being the march forward with the Mech list. Their survivability increases with an honorguard and corbulo...bouncing 2 wounds a turn, while advancing on the enemy. They will also benefit from free furious charge as long as corbulo is within 12" of them.

Furioso Dreadnought: For the points, these guys are damn expensive...especially the Venerable DC dread. 145pts? no thanks...even getting the additional attacks isn't worth it. If the BA army is going to be a drop pod army, then they might be useful, but I really don't see them seeing much table time...unless it appears in a fluff bunny list.

Dreadnought: Like all dreadnoughts, taking these really depends on what list build you are doing and also what your overall plan is. I really only see these being worth it in a Drop Pod version of a BA list. Dreads are too easy to kill at range, and are much better when they are dropped on someones head with a drop pod.

Techmarines: Even though they don't take up a force org. slot, they are too expensive and really don't bring any sort of advantage to your list. Again a fluff bunny choice. they really don't contribute to an effective list in any way.

Veteran Assault Squad: Hands down the most killy unit in the BA arsenal...even above DC. The potential death this unit can deliver is hidious. This unit has a lot of versatility in what you want it to do and fits in with any type of list build. A drop pod BA list will love this unit since it can take up to 5 (yes five!) plasmgun type weapons. With that you are getting 10 plasma shots on the turn you land. Sure 3 of those guns can only do it once per battle, but what better time than when you hit the table right? Take only the five, get the guns and pod for the rock bottom price of 210pts....a friggin steal. Hands down the best unit the BA have, and I would expect several units of them in various BA builds...they are simply that good. Choppy or shooty, they can do it all.

Scouts: While not the strongest choice anymore since they lost furious charge, you can still make up for that by taking corbulo to boost them. However, there are other choices in the elites slot that are better (veterans!). I see them still being used for push back vs. other infiltrators and also for cheap close combat support.

Troops:

Assault Marines: Assault marines are only worth taking as troops if you plan on fielding loads of them, backed up by Dante and possibly Mephiston. They are pretty pricey for a troops choice and I only really see them working well in a BA jumppack list, or the Mech list. Equipping them will vary with each player.

Tactical Squad: Gone are the 6 man las/plas squads that made BA extremely shooty when you wanted them to be. Tactical squads are the back bone of any marine army, but not necessarily with the BA. If you still want to bring lascannons to the field, you will need these guys, but surprisingly they aren't a mandatory choice for BA. Certain BA list builds will need them, but others won't.


Fast Attack:


Bike Squadron: Nothing exciting about a bike squadron. Still one of the weaker choices in a BA army.

Attack Bikes: Notice that BA attack bikes squadrons are NOT minimum of 2 like other marine armies. This alone makes them worth consideration. Another thing that makes them worth taking is that basic landspeeders with a heavy bolter went up 15pts. If you want cheap move and shoot Heavy Bolters, this is the only unit you will find it in now.

Landspeeder Squadrons: Well like DA, the speeders got the base points increase and also a points increase for the tornado variant. So if you like your assault cannons, you'll have to pay more for them. Still one of the better choices in the Fast category regardless. The nice little bonus is that BA speeders can take the Multimelta option with an assault cannon. That makes them great tank hunters.

Heavy Support:

Devastators: Welcome back Devs! BA get some long range fire power back with devs. Combat squads makes this unit useful and allows the BA player to spread the field with ranged firepower that won't rage anymore. While I don't see too many of these units fielded, one unit is still useful enough in most BA builds.

Landraider: Boo! Still not worth taking...and extra armor went up by +15 points! No thanks.

Landraider Crusader: While getting a price break by 15pts. from previous codex versions, it also loses it's built in extra armor as well...want that extra armor back? Pay the 15pts...and you are back at 265pts...meh. Still not worth taking.

Whirlwind: For me, this unit only has rare occasion use and utility. YMMV with this unit and it really depends on the player. Not for me.

Predator: Cheaper in cost, these are definitely a cheap way to get some move and shoot heavy weapons in your army. Very useful for a Mech BA build and also a Jumppack BA build. Equipped right, these tanks can lose no firepower while advancing with the rest of the army.

Vindicator: Like the whirlwind this is a rare occasion type vehicle. Like the whirlwind YMMV and comes down to the player and his overall strategy. For me, there is much better choices in the heavy category. I'll pass.

BAAL Predator: Hands down still the best Heavy choice for BA....for several reasons. It's still relatively cheap...great for those ass-cannon lovers, and over charge engines allow it to keep up with fast moving builds like the Jumppack build, Mech build, and possibly work ok with Drop Pod builds...all while losing no firepower! This tank should be standard issue in most BA lists.

Well that is my review for now. Stay tuned for Part 2, when I start to put this knowledge into actual lists and I will be posting what I feel will be the most common builds that will be successful for players.

Peace!

Capt K

Unless Bikes and Speeders count as Troops, you missed out the Fast Attack title. Nothing a quick edit can't fix.

Also, I wonder how Death Company work in deployment order terms? Are they counted as an HQ choice? Or Elites? Or Fast Attack? Or what?

They are still deployed as elites like they used to be.

Capt K

I think it's a middle of the pack list. Honestly, the more I read it, the more I absolutely hate it. It's not the nerf (which is obvious and justifiable), it's how imbalanced the choices are. There's a few choices that are obviously great (Veteran Assault Marines, Honor Guard, Baal Predators), and the rest are very mediocre.

I'm also totally pissed off that they JUST released a new Codex Space Marines, and already have decided that their changes were wrong, and are reversing it all. They improved Marines with the last release, and now Jervis seems to want to take them below where they were in the previous release. How can they be so out of sync as a development staff?



I agree, he's a solid HQ for a bigger game. I think you're missing the real trick with him, which is to put him with an Honor Guard and give them the +1A banner.

He's also got 4A, which none of the other HQ have, which pisses me off. Another nerf to the BAs, DAs that makes no real sense to me, but I expect it to be to all Marines in the future.

I took Lemartes in my list cause he's close to what I'd run as a base Chaplain, but with a wound and a Death Mask. I'd like to put a Meltabomb on, but not worth losing the wound.



Yeah, and now you're paying 35 points each in semi-hidden costs. You're right, it's now feasible to take Terminators, though, which is one of the few ways the list gained options.



Not a good idea. Meltabombs are cheaper, just as effective.



I don't think anything is more killy than DC, but the Veterans are a really amazingly good unit. Your notion to use them in a Drop Pod with shooting is one that I hadn't thought of, I had been looking at them purely as Jump Packers (three Fists even at 25 points is impressive).

You're kidding about Lemartes, right? He's just about the best choice there is in the HQ list. You're going to want to have a Chaplain to control the DC (whether he runs with or just near the DC is up to you). This means having a jump pack Chappy. If you give the standard Chaplain a jump pack, he's only 5 points cheaper than Lemartes - and for those 5 points you get the Death Mask, +1 Wound, and +1 Leadership (less useful on a Fearless model, I know, but helps vs Mind War & other leadership tests).

Also, the VAS cannot put out 10 plasma shots unless the unit doesn't move (and that includes disembarking), as 2 of the guns are pistols.

Taking a Chaplain to give Litanies of hate is incredibly useful, despite what you say. It allows a 10-man DC to pump out 10 rends on the charge rather than around 6-7 when hitting on 4's. Thats a big difference.

Not so much the best as the most mandatory. Honestly I'd rather take a Chaplain built from the rules in the vanilla Marines book and get the extra attack, so he's not really a good model as models go, but in a BA army somebody to lead the DC and give them Litanies of Hate, as you say, is really major.

Um...3 combi-plasmaguns, 2 plasmaguns...that seems like 10 shots to me.

Capt k

Posted By Phryxis on 06/25/2007 8:02 PM


I know it makes them worse, but this is one of those nerfs that doesn't seem totally pointless. Marine HQs have really great special rules like rites of battle, psychic hoods, and litanies of hate that make them worth taking even if they can't eat an entire  tactical squad on the charge.




Maybe I'm wrong (I haven't bought the list, just perused it) but he gets an extra wound and the death mask for just 5 points over the normal chaplain, right? In any game under 1501 points I think that might make him not just the best special character but also maybe the best HQ. Dante's too expensive and, lacking power weapons or jump packs, the other special characters are relegated to sitting and waiting to support your countercharge. That or they need a rhino/drop pod list, which gets pretty fragile at >1500 points.



The list gained terminators, attack bikes (which I predict will be fantastic in a highly mobile list), cheap rhinos & destructors, and combat squads.

As for the Death Company it's 30 points for a lot of them and 5 for at least a few. For that they get FNP and rending. If you balk at the 35 point price tag for the guys you add to the squad, just think of them as assault terminators that actually work. I think the DC breaks even nowadays as opposed to being a near-freebie like before.

The reason why I don't select Lemartes as a top choice is that a regular chaplain can take extra gear. In this day and age of LD10, the death mask, while cheap, isn't that great. +1 wound is nice but overall if you compare Lemartes now to how he was then...he is rather disappointing...especially when the other BA characters got decent boosts all around. For me, if I were taking a chappy, I'd rather be able to custom equip him instead of having one extra wound. Getting that powerfist on that chappy makes the DC slightly better vs. skimmers.

Capt K

Terminators which can't take two Assault Cannons... Granted, they're 34 points each after DC math, so that's not too bad, but without Assault Cannons they're really not that great of a unit.

Bikes, meh. Never been a unit I'd use.



Depends how you do the math. Some units are upcosted 30 points to account for the DC model you get. So you can say the DC are free and the other units are overpriced, or you can say the DC cost 35 points and the units are priced normally.

There's a ton of nerfs in this list, some appropriate, some that go to far, but I think what I really hate is the Combat Squads rule. It looks like that's going to be the standard with all Marine armies in the future, and it's just stupid as hell. especially when you combine it with upcosting all the heavy and special weapons.

There's a ton of nerfs in this list, some appropriate, some that go to far, but I think what I really hate is the Combat Squads rule. It looks like that's going to be the standard with all Marine armies in the future, and it's just stupid as hell. especially when you combine it with upcosting all the heavy and special weapons.

Oh yea...this really seems nerfed compared to DA...

Combat Squads stupid? Maybe as stupid as 6-man las/plas tac squads...

It's pretty sad that GW can't get away from codex creep, even for their beloved poster-boys...

I think any fair analysis could only conclude the latter. Out of interest and in order to stimulate debate Phryxis, could you outline these nerfs you speak of and which you consider go too far?

I like the combat squads. It makes the marine army completely rigid like it should be and always was until 3rd edition. Marine players have been spoiled for so long that it seems that they have forgotten how to use 5 man squads again...lol.

Capt K

I'm not sure that combat squads are 'stupid'. There's both pros and cons to making them standard. It is a downgrade in power - no question. This is fine insofar as it balances Marines against Tau, Imperial Guard, Orks, Dark Eldar, etc.

You lose a bit of flexibility and customization in building the list (and representing your own unique Chapter). The same list however will be more easily adjusted based on your opponent - for example most of the time my Devastator Squads split in two to maximize their shooting, but if I'm facing very heavy firepower I'll combine them to maximize the ablative wounds.

After a few months of playing with the new Dark Angels book, I don't mind Tactical Squads. I don't win as much, but the games are more interesting. With Chaos needing 10-men to field a Heavy and BT's having their own drawbacks, it balances out mostly.

As a treadhead, upcosting anti-tank weapons is something that's well overdue. With luck, we'll see more variety in Tactical Squad armament.

As a fellow treadhead...Yeah. I hope that happens as well too.

Capt