Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm a big fan of cheap effective units; I'm also a big fan of walking robotic-like robocop-nemesis-from-the-first-movie things that pour out torrents of fire.

So with that in mind, and the desire to create a very tourney-caliber Eldar list, what build on a warwalker do you think is the most effective for the points it costs?

My thoughts:

Base (30) + 2 Shuriken Cannon (10).
-That's 40 points for six S6 BS3 shots. Run a unit of 3 of these and you have 18 S6 shots. The range is 24", but you might as well add 12 to that because warwalkers get that free scout move + first turn move. Also, a great unit to Guide.

No spirit stones. Why? A few reasons:
-First off, the best way I think to run warwalkers is in squadrons of 3, so lets assume that.
-If your unit takes several glancing/penetrating results, you can pile them on one warwalker. Lets assume, for the sake of using spirit stones, they're all "Crew Stunned" results. You now have one warwalker Crew Stunned into oblivion. Great- unit coherency is 4 inches for a warwalker squadron. They move 6 inches. Pick the warwalker you want the other two to "walk around", and essentially 'cant move' has become 'can only move 4 inches' which is not that bad :-P
-That being said, I don't think the 5 points per is worth it.

Now to compare the other options:
Scatter lasers at 30 points for the pair:
    -brings the warwalker to 60 points a model. What more do you get? Two shots and added range. To me this just doesn't seem worth it. Again, with the Scout rule and maneuverability, range shouldn't be too much of an issue (and you'll generally shoot the closer threats over further threats anyways). 40 points for 6 S6 shots, 60 points for 8 S6 shots... 120 points for 18 S6 shots, 180 points for 24 S6 shots... I'd rather not. However, they do make Guide a little bit more advantageous.

Starcannons at 50 points for the pair:
    -Now we're paying 80 points for 4 S6 AP2 shots. For that same price you get 12 S6 AP6 shots. Three times as many shots, but no AP. Lets compare the numbers:

Target: Terminators
Starcannons: 4 shots @ BS3 = 2 hits. 2 hits @ S6 = usually 2 wounds. 2 wounds = 2 dead Terminators.
Shuriken Cannons: 12 shots @ BS3 = 6 hits. 6 hits @ S6 = 5 wounds. 5 wounds @ 2+ sv = usually 1 dead Terminator.

Target: Marines
Starcannons: 4 shots @ BS3 = 2 hits. 2 hits @ S6 = usually 2 wounds. 2 wounds = 2 dead Marines.
Shuriken Cannons: 12 shots @ BS3 = 6 hits. 6 hits @ S6 = 5 wounds. 5 wounds @ 3+ sv = 1 to 2 dead Marines.

Target: Scouts
Starcannons: 4 shots @ BS3 = 2 hits. 2 hits @ S6 = usually 2 wounds. 2 wounds = 2 dead Scouts.
Shuriken Cannons: 12 shots @ BS3 = 6 hits. 6 hits @ S6 = 5 wounds. 5 wounds @ 4+ sv = 2 to 3 dead Scouts.

So, we get very close results when comparing the Shuriken Cannon to the Star Cannon simply by an excess volume of fire. Shuriken Cannons benefit much more greatly from Guide, and as soon as you face a target that has worse than a 3+ save (or vehicles), Shurken Cannons suddenly become much better. Of course, Star Cannons have 12 more inches in range. As I have pointed out before though, this is not as much of a problem as you'd think, and not every army you face will be sitting on the board edge either.

Eldar Missile Launchers at 40 points for the pair:
    -This is really the only other effective option I'd consider. 70 points for a model that can fire off 2 S8 AP3 shots to deal with the higher armor values, or 2 S4 AP4 blast templates is not that bad. 48 inch range guarantees a target turn 1. However, if you have other things in your army to deal with high armor, I'd whole-heartedly suggest running the Shuriken Cannon build over this.


So... 360 points for 9 warwalkers with Shurken Cannons... sounds like an incredibly good deal to me.

54 S6 shots. A turn. MMMmmmm.....

Anyway, I realize I've probably dismissed the lack of range as too little of a problem. But I still stand by my conclusion. Your thoughts?

i don't have a new eldar codex, but don't they have the option of taking 2 different weapons?

in my experience you always build for balance. also as a tread head i always kit out my units to survive.

 

just from memory assuming 2 weapons is still valid

 

3 squads of 5 war walkers each(IIRC the new dex lets you take units of 5)  with spirit stones armed with a bright lance and a scatter laser for a total of 75 shots with decent range(15 of which are tank/termi killers) makes for both a well themed army and due to vehicles in a unit rules, you won't be sacrificing anyone by  leaving them behind thanks to the stones.

 

 

I'd reread my codex if I were you 8)

The Standard layout is 2 with Scatter Lasers, 1 with Starcannons. (Often called the Blackmoore pattern, after the Dakka user who devised it)

Don't sell extra range short, staying outside of bolter range is a big deal for lightly armored units like warwalkers.

Standard layout for the Eldar walker list is

Avatar
Eldrad

Countercharge (harlies/banshees/scorpions)
Countercharge

Guardians (with anti tank weapons)
Guardians
Guardians
Guardians

Indirect Fire Hunter (Viper/Swooping Hawks)

Warwalkers
Warwalkers
Warwalkers

Keeps the Warwalkers alive with Eldrad's redeploy+scout move to keep the majority of opponent's anti tank weapons away. As long as you stay out of Bolter range you give the walkers (and your primary source of firepower) a solid chance of staying around. The indirect fire hunters can be skipped if you don't see many in your area. (they should be a lot less necessary with IW losing access to all of its indirect fire platforms)

The reason to spend the littl bit extra and get scatterlasers is because of the range really. The extra shot is just whipped cream.

If it wasnt for the fact that shiriken cannons were 24" range, then you would see tons more with this armament. As it stand, warwalkers die to grots farting in your general direction, so you need range to help the survivability.

Imagine, if you will, a single turn of firing 24 str6 shots at 36" range compared to 18 str6 shots at 24" range. Not a huge margin for difference really, but suddenly your models survive longer in a protracted battle.

basically, you get more bang for your buck over the course of several turns with scatterlasers because you have possibly more guns left on the table.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/15/2007 5:06 PM

So... 360 points for 9 warwalkers with Shurken Cannons... sounds like an incredibly good deal to me.

If they didnt take up HS slots, then Id agree.

Unit size is 1 to 3.

@ mixed weapons: I don't find this build very useful. You have to fire all weapons at the same target. Which means if you're firing at a vehicle, your anti-infantry weapons lose effectiveness, and vice versa. Why bother doing that when you can just run anti-infantry units and anti-tank units separately? Then you can use everything to its maximum potential...

@IntoTheRain you raise a valid point on risking putting yourself in bolter fire with the Shuriken Cannon's 24 inches. However, with their sheer volume of fire, you should be able to eliminate marine squads before they can fire back, forcing others to have to move into range and wait a turn, then you proceed to do the same thing.

Again: 40 points for 6 S6 BS3 24" shots.
Do you think this is very worth it?
I think so.
To be honest, I can't think of anything else that can pump out fire so well for the same points (or ratio).

Hellfury, I agree they are more survivable with the Scatter Lasers. But do you think paying 20 points more per is really worth it?

yes

Similar in strategy to the decked out Falcons, getting your opponent to shoot at a unit of warwalkers can be advantageous. Why? Because you can pile all the results on one warwalker. If you field scatterlasers and stay out of range, you're missing this opportunity

Of course, to take advantage of this, you'll need to run them in an army that moves forward with mostly everything. But that army, oh my!

I say go with the scatter lasers. Now a days you need the extra shots against a zilla list and you really don't want to be within 24" of genestealers.

Also, 24" is the range on assault cannons. Avoiding those for a turn or two extra is also choice.

ender502

There are several problems with War Walkers (and this is from a guy who tried to make 9 work for a while before giving it up).

There are better HS choices. Of course the Falcon is by far the best HS choice. Not only can it put out a lot of shots, but it is able to get a squad of 6 elites anywhere on the table. But the part that I like about them is there survivability…not just for shooting and transport, but at the end of the game, they are a scoring unit so you normally get their 200 points+a table quarter, an objective, or double there points for being somewhere.

Also Fire Prisms and Dark Reapers are on the second tier.

But still like War Walkers. One big advantage they have is that they shoot so much, that guide is a great force multiplier. Also some people are saying that the shirken cannon walkers are not worth it, and I disagree. 120 points is pocket change for 18 strength 6 shots. That is a pretty good deal.

But what I found out when I used my war walkers is that they are very fragile. Some units (Havocs, Devastators etc.) will blow them off of the board.

So I was winning about 66% of my games when I was using the War Walkers, but that was not enough for me. Also they were very first turn dependant.

But you got me thinking that I want to try it again. Add in Eldrad with his re-deploy, and 2 fortunes, and I might see it working.

I've seen (unfortunately!) the damage 3 Warwalkers with Scatterlasers and a nearby Farseer with guide can dish out.

It is ugly.

Sure, it is a points investment, but from what I've seen so far, it is worth it.

You also need to read vehicle squadron rules more carefully. You can't necessarily allocate all hits to one war walker (assuming LOS and range) from another single unit firing.

I run a cheapish unit of 3 with Scatterlaser/Shuriken Cannon for 150 points; pretty cheap. In games of CoD, they are a great unit as I don't have to worry about the lack of AP, range (4x4 table typically) or getting left out in the open.

In regular 40K, I wish I'd have put on twin Scatterlasers or Scatterlaser/Starcannon. The extra range is very important.

Scout is ok, but if not careful, you will get yourself out of range to get Guided, which is really necessary to ensure your Warwalkers do what they need to do.

If you play on a typical 6x4 table and use the 25% terrain guideline, I'd really recommend against twin Shuriken Cannons on each Warwalker.

Black, your basically making the case for why you need the extra range.

1) It allows you to actually trade blows with heavy weapons squads

2) Cuts down on the amount of fire you have to expose the walkers too. Getting within 24" very likely means that several squads can fire on the walkers, the extra 12" allows for a lot more peeking from behind cover.

3) Probably most importantly, it helps keep them safe from rapid fire. Since almost all of your lists firepower will come from the walkers, you should be doing everything in your power to keep them safe. (and as an avid Dark Eldar player, I can vouch for the surprising effectiveness of bolters against AV10)

You keep saying that, but it isn't true.

If you take hits, you allocate them evenly, then roll to penetrate. So if you take 7 hits, it will be 3-2-2 on the 3 war walkers. Then you roll for penetration, then damage.

If you take 2 hits, you assign 1-1-0, then roll for armor pen, then damage. Sorry, no 'piling' on.

I didn't read everything.

But.

Scatterlasers and Missile Launchers are both excellent weapon load-outs for War Walkers. Missile Launchers especially with the longer range, but Scatterlasers too.

Shuriken Cannon is too short, you may as well get the Scatterlasers and you get 2 more shots each Walker anyway.

I like the 2x Scatterlaser + 1x Starcannon idea. I would probably stick with Scatterlaser anyway.

And I personally never take Brightlances except on a Wraithlord.

Well, you are half correct, and you are making the case for scatter lasers.

If you take multiple hits from a squad, they are allocated evenly throughout the war walker squadron like the example above. Let's say you get shot by a tac squad and take his from a lascannon, plasma gun, and bolters. Then you would allocate hits through the squad.

But let’s say that you are 36" away, and get shot by a squada with a lascannon. Since they are single shots, they go against the closest war walker until it is dead, then they will go on to the next closest in the squadron.

Posted By coredump on 08/15/2007 7:55 PM

Why? Because you can pile all the results on one warwalker.

You keep saying that, but it isn't true.

If you take hits, you allocate them evenly, then roll to penetrate. So if you take 7 hits, it will be 3-2-2 on the 3 war walkers. Then you roll for penetration, then damage.

If you take 2 hits, you assign 1-1-0, then roll for armor pen, then damage. Sorry, no 'piling' on.

Interesting... you see, I play locally against an Eldar player who runs 3 Bright Lance/ML equipped warwalkers in a squadron, and he convinced me long ago otherwise.

I'll have to take a closer look at the rules!

But you still benefit when separate units target your warwalkers with shooting- lets say the first volley gives you a stunned result. Ok, stun warwalker #1. Second volley gives you an immobilized result. Ok, immobilize warwalker #1. etc.
*edit: Blackmoor already said this *

Anyway, I think the Shuriken Cannon warwalkers would probably work best vs Imperial Guard- all their heavy weapons out range you anyways, so you want to walk towards them- their mass of S3 fists and flashlights will only dent your armor anyways. Getting into HtH will also lock up an entire unit.

Like I said, the Shuriken Cannon warwalkers would be best in an Eldar army that rushes towards the opponent, giving them too many options to shoot at, the warwalker squadrons being an option that can (now "somewhat" pile incoming fire on one 'walker.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/15/2007 5:58 PM
Hellfury, I agree they are more survivable with the Scatter Lasers. But do you think paying 20 points more per is really worth it?

Undoubtedly.

Beleive me, I was of similar thought as you were when the new codex came out, but since playing quite a bit more, I have found that shuricannons are good for only jetbikes,  vypers and walkers in COD.

Its a waste of a HS slot to give them such short range and minimal shots.

Take the scasers and a new world of hurt opens up for your opponents. It costs more, but it really makes them be able to be usable for longer than a single round of firing. Just as the shuricannons are a steal, the few extra points to make them more threatening throughout the game is also a steal.

But I will say this for the shuircannon walkers. They are a very good deal and they will be prime in apocalypse, just as they are custom made for COD, if for no other reason than the lack of FOC, so use them as troops and spam away.

It makes my pee-pee quiver just thinking about fielding a horde of warwalkers, but then again, I probably wont find too many opponents to play me either though.

But thats the point. if you have limited resources (i.e FOC slots) then you want to make the most of it that you can, if you have unlimited resources, then go hog wild and make 18 walkers with shuricannons for 720 points.

One more thing.

I heard that bonesingers will be getting bona fide rules in apocalypse. Not sure if its true, but if it is, then walkers are gonna bring a whole new meaning to the word "ouch" due to survivability.

Screw falcons, warwalkers is where its at for aggressive technology that gets the job done.

Hey thanks. Of all the times I read that, I kept missing the 'start with the closest' part.

Has anyone tried 2 falcons and 3 warwalkers?

I've been thinking of doing that for my eldar army for a while, it seems that with 2 falcons running around, that should draw enough firepower away from the walkers, especially if the walkers have 36" range. Although heavy bolters and multilasers can still put some hurt into the walkers...

I have tried it quite a bit in casual play, but only once in an RTT. The War Walkers do ok b/c of the Falcons your opponent is trying to drop. However, you still have to be careful with them as most people would not ignore an easy target of opportunity.

The main trouble I have with them is simple: they are a HS choice where they compete against my Falcons and Wraithlords, especially in a tourney setting.

compare warwalkers to the space marine lightly armoured vehicle, the landspeeder, assuming you are taking 2 scatter lasers which is the only tournament viable setup, they will cost the same. The landspeeder has ap 4 weapons, which will come in handy against hordes, as the only 2 units with 6+ saves that are commonly used are orks and some gaunts. With AP4 most other troops will no longer be getting saves aside from MEQs. the warwalker has 8 str 6 shots, wounding 4 times on average and killing 2-3, while a landspeeder will wound 5 times, and kill 4-5 most of the time, since it negates most saves on horde armies, and has rending for those heavily armoured troops. For the same points another vehicle beats out a warwalker on survivability and firepower against all but falcons and light transports. Though warwalkers can be guided, that still only ends up killing 5 MEQs, and 10 models from most horde armies. However at that point you are spending almost 850 points to kill approximately 12 MEQs a turn, or 23 horde models per turn which is about 2 small squads of marines or a little over 2 guardsmen units per turn. At that point marines, crons, chaos, even sisters, will kill a good portion of 2 squads in a turn, while most IG tourney armies could possibly kill all 3 units, and most likely 2. with the 15+ lascannons, heavy bolters, autocannons, etc., which can kill the warwalkers nice an easy.