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I've been a 40k player for years, and as fate would have it, haven't seen a lot of Space Marines until recently. I've always gravitated towards the more evil armies and many of my friends seem to be either 'nid or Eldar players.

Well, I couldn't resist the new Dark Angels figs so I bought them, assembled them, and have taken them for a spin. Which got me thinking, tactically, how are they different from vanilla marines?

I know the background info - that's what got me interested. And I know vanilla marines can take traits. But I keep hearing the DA are harder to win with...that they're mostly shooty...etc. I'm trying to get some specifics and what makes them different and nothing's jumping off of the page for me when I read the SM codex.

So, any thoughts from you fine folks?

- netgeist

Um, have you actually read the DA codex? They can't take HWs in a 5-man tac squad, they can only take one asscannon in a Terminator squad, and they can't field lone LSTs. On the plus side, they do get some nice toys in the form of combat squad, RWing and DWing rules, though most would say this doesn't come anywhere near making up for it.

Dark Angels are weak, Blood Angels are better but have the same general disadvantages.

>>>Um, have you actually read the DA codex?<<<

Um, have you actually read my post? I've read the DA codex, but I specifically said that I was not familiar with the vanilla marine rules, hence the reason for the post. So I really don't think the sarcasm was necessary here.

I'm certainly not sure that I would say the Deathwing Assault is much of an advantage. In fact, it's kind of an odd phrase. The termies can deep strike in using the normal deep strike rules, but then they're sitting ducks if the deep strike doesn't go well. Now if they could actually assault that turn, that would be an advantage!

- netgeist

You didn't state anywhere that you had read the DA codex, and I did not quite believe that the vanilla Marines' ability to take 6-man las/plas, dual asscannon Termies, and lone LSTs could fail to "jump off the page" when you read the 'dex. No sarcasm was intended (only a bit of snarkiness ).

Oh, another difference: vanilla libby powers don't suck.

As for DWA, like I said, nice toys. Not necessarily game-winning assets.

You'll do infinitely better as green space marines than Dark Angels. Just like red space marines beat blood angels.

first i think yoiur mixing 3rd ed codex with the new one

 

with the old intractable rules 3rd ed DAs were the priemier loyalist shooty army because you never had to move your heavy weapons

 

with the new dex and the new direction JJ has taken the codex's DA are now codex marines with the following things that make them different from vanilla.

1.deathwing terminators as troop with mixed weapon types

some would say this is a cool idea but still a weakness because the current nilla dex allows bigger squads, more wargear more heavy weapons and vet skills

2.all dreads can be venerable

cool idea probably one of the few truly good things, but again you loose vet skills andpay more for extra armor so its good but not as good as a trait marine army with head the wisdom of the ancients.

3.chapter specific librarian powers

different from the standard nilla libbies, unfortunately all the powers pretty much suck.

4.ravenwing

cool we get a bike/speeder army thats fearless and scouts...but they took away alot fo things that made them resiliant-skilled rider, wargear, attack bike squads, tornado squads etc...  where as a trait marine chapter with be swift as the wind may not be fearless it has more options in other areas.

5.special characters

we have very unique special characters, its almost a throw back to 2nd ed hero hammer. all the new dex's are getting named special characters that are better than anything you can buld with the new armory restrictions.

in and of themselves performace wise some are very cool like samael and azrael and some suck like belial

 

alot of the other stuff like combat squads and such are making thier way into all the new loyalist marine books and are likely going to be in the nilla dex next time around

As a former deathwing player turned into lysander player, I wish Jervis would contract herpes for making a cool army like the deathwing into something that is more laughable than it ever was.

One heavy weapon in a squad of termies is seriously ridiculous. One assault cannon is reasonable, but one heavy weapon is merely foolish.

With the advent of mixed weaponry in the DA termie squads, I can understand why there may be one heavy weapon (can you imagine the hurt a squad with 2 ass cannons and 3 sets of twin lightning claws would do on a charge?) but since they have made the same restrictions on BA, but without adding mixed weaponry for them, its apparent that GW really doesnt want to sell as many termies as they once did.

Merely foolish.

So are they considered a weak army overall - or just weaker than vanilla marines? I've played them twice, with mixed results. One solid win against Necrons (an army I play and therefore know well) and one loss against the new CSM.

I'll play them anyway because I love the background and look, but I do have a tendency to mostly gravitate towards armies that are notoriously difficult to win with. If that's the case here, I just want to be prepared.

Thanks,

- netgeist

They are weaker than vanilla Marines. That means they are weaker than 'nidzilla, mech Eldar, post-nerf Chaos (IMO), and mech Tau. In metagame terms, that means that yes, they are simply weak.

They aren't quite foot-slogging Orks, though. I'm sure you'll manage.

as a former pure deathwing & ravenwing player

i can say they are tough to win with no matter which version you play. they are just seriously more handicaped now.

one thing i discovered in re-writing my list is that a mecchanised force even for deathwing is preferable. you can do it pure with just termies, dreads and raiders or you can add in some other parts of the chapter like speeders or dev squads etc...

the thing that really hirt me was the squad size, everything can kill a termi. if you cause enough wounds your going to start failing saves. ive lost loads of termies to IG flashlights. which is why my  preference was for 10 man squads. they tended to survive the return fire better on the turn they DS and survive to get into CC. 5 man squads are to easily isolated and eliminated IMHO

i must say  frommy experience podding venerable dreads with the AC/DCCW w/hvy flamer are golden even at the newer steep points costs

Compared to vanilla marines, they suck horribly, just like the new chaos compared to old.

My marine army now is pretty competetive. I win a lot more than i lose, and i usually only lose to really tough lists. But to do the same thing i have now in my 2K list with the DA dex would cost 2250 points, or about 11% more. Basically i would have to drop an entire squad to make up the difference, and my squads would pack less punch as they would only have one speical weapon for tacticals or one assault cannon for termies.

Therefore, i would pay more to do less with less models on the table.

My final analysis: they blow.

if this happens to my marines, they will be for apocolypse games only, which sucks because i have about 4K painted to a very nice standard.

IMO Dark Angels are played because they have a cool back ground more often than not. I think they require more experience to play but depending on your style they can do fine.

One of the toughest opponents I know regularly plays DA because that is what he started with in '96. He has many more armies and hasn't taken them to a tourney because he enjoys Nids more than anything else. But in friendly games he is tough to play against.

He does take things that don't seem to make much sense but work out well. Like 2 Rhinos with the flamer pie plate option. (Great for toasting harlies and pathfinders in my Eldar army).

The problem is they are best if you know which opponents you are going to play and are allowed to tailor your list. What makes them seem to suck is the difficulty of a completely balanced force against all comers.

Orion