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Looking at the new dex the following units spring to mind as being possibly good choices.

1. Sorc/Prince w/Lash: Much discussed already.

2. Abbadon: DSing CC monster.

3. Khorne Terminators w/combi plama: DS, shoot, assault.

4. Greater Daemon: Cheap CC monster.

5. Plague Marines: Goes well with Termies as resistant to small arms. 2 specials per squad.

6. Obliterators: More expensive now, die easier but a decent choice especially if you're going with a small-arms resistant list.

I initially considered Vindis but they don't tend to do as well as Obs vs Nidzilla or Mech Eldar.

I for one am under the impression that dakka swarm consense also led to

7. Raptors (Slaanesh?): Dirt cheap for DS and mobility, again 2 special weapons per squad.

and at last, a rather personal choice which I did not see mentioned at all by now, but which might not be as bad a deal:

(8.) Chosen: 15 pts Marine, added infiltration for 3 pts just like in the old dex, but now with up to five, read 5(!) special weapons per 5-10 models at the generic cost per Weapon. As to speak, just for Fun: 5 Chosen, infiltrating, 5 Melta = 140 pts. What worked out okay for some of those old lists can't be that bad in some new ones, I'd guess... Con: Competing for Termie-slot

khorneflakes

Abaddon is a bit expensive and dont come with a retinue so it may very easily end up with him comming down alone. Think that suckers him out alot

The terminators are almost all good, even without a mark for some cheap DS power. Marking is usually only worth it in a little bigger squad. 4 normals with combi-plasma = 140 for example.

Noisemarines are good against hordes, 1k sons against meqs.. personally dont see either Khorne or basic CSM as options.

Raptors are again all pretty good.

Obliterators seem to be the prefered choice of heavys esp with possesion beeing gimped.

Chosen have many uses, infiltrating an icon for your DS terminators can be quite useful. But they are a bit expensive for the little pain they can take. Very situational.

1. Sorc/Prince w/Lash: Much discussed already.

Not certain how much I love this notion, actually. It adds to your ability to bully noncompetitive lists, but SM's and Eldar have good counter-psyker measures in place that cost very little. If I spend my HQ slot on a lash and end up against the Runes of WTF I'm a very unhappy campter.

2. Abbadon: DSing CC monster.

I'm a fan, he's a beast. Not fast though, an I prefer squads of assaulters for my counterattackers. For the role of CC beast I'd prefer Kharne, much cheaper and doesn't do too much worse than Abaddon as a countercharger.

3. Khorne Terminators w/combi plama: DS, shoot, assault.

I think Terminators get the icon treatment, not buying individual marks, right? Seems like putting the icon on a squad with such a small size (3-10) is about the lowest amount of oomph you can get out of the points spent on an Icon. What about a big Raptor squad with the Mark of Khorne?

4. Greater Daemon: Cheap CC monster.

Hmph. You pay in another way for this guy though, he's a little more expensive than he looks since you lose your guy to bring him in. HQ is too expensive to sacrifice, and many squads dont' appreciate having their boss ripped away (The Sorcerer Commands...until he's ripped apart from within and the newly arrived beasty goes chasing off after the enemy)

5. Plague Marines: Goes well with Termies as resistant to small arms. 2 specials per squad.

Great guys, I'm in agreement with you here.

6. Obliterators: More expensive now, die easier but a decent choice especially if you're going with a small-arms resistant list.

I don't like Obliterators as much anymore. Losing t5 and becoming more expensive has turned me off them. I prefer Havocs or the new Defiler for my Heavy Support.

Obliterators I'm thinking will be great as singleton deepstrikers in a terminator army. Not so much thrilled with the T4. They die way, way too quickly to massed smallarms with that low toughness. A couple bad saves and all your heavies are gone.

I still think they're great, but I'm becoming less enamored with them.

Havocs look OK but pricy. That Antitank really costs you in the Chaos list.

Also, see no reason to tank Mark of Khorne over Mark of slaanesh at any time (I5 means fewer dead terminators, and it's cheaper).

From most of what I am hearing it seems that anything Slannesh, and thousand sons as core troop choice reigns supreme. Am I accurate in this assumption? I would look forward to facing more of them if it is true. I like fluffy Eldar vs Slannesh battles.

Orion

Thousand sons, Emperors children and Plaguemarines are all pretty ok troopchoices, most probably they will only fill the 2 req slots tho.

Abbadon can attach himself to a unit of termie's pregame, and Deep Strike with them, correct? I was under the impression that was how it worked, but I could of course be mistaken (I don't have a copy of the Codex.)

I like the Chosen as well. Infiltrating into Melta range is a bear to deal with, and the knowledge they are there will help force less focused deployment on your opponant.

You cant attach yourself at a unit pregame. Sickening tbh..

Huh ,really? I always thought IC's could attach themselves to a unit and say ride in their transport or some such. Of course, I never did such a thing myself, so I might be wrong. I suppose that would create difficulty in deployment, such as wondering if your HQ attached to troops deployed as HQ or Troops...

You can deploy into their transport in the deployment phase, but not attach pre-game and deepstrike. really lame. yep.

I think Plaguemarines are a pretty decent squad, but they're challenging to use. Very resilient though, with the FNP. I could see some decent lists coming out of Plaguemarines + termies + prince + oblits.

To make things even more confusing you can attach a character to a squad and deepstrike them, but only if you roll for both reserv rolls in the same round.

Also belive in what you said.. princes, terminators, 2x plaguemarines, obliterators and raptors.. Plaguemarines mostly cause they will be a cheaper way to get 2 special weapons. (preferable plasma with FNP). Imo those are the most worthy choices, with maybe a chosen squad for more accurate deepstriking and lots of special weapons also... but thats just maybe. Think 3 terminator squads will be more useful.

Cornflakes made a good point,

you can now have cheap(ish) suicide deepstriking units with 5 special weapons.
Imagine 2 squads of 5, each loaded with plasma in one and melta in the other.

pick your target people,
who cares if you get a random ability (and that they are over priced on mass)

280 points (i think) for 10 deepstriking possessed with 5 meltas and 5 plasmas!!
That still rocks (but is competing for space with the super-cheap but still one wound terminators)

I think you are very confused.

-Possessed cannot deepstrike and cannot take any weapons. All they have as options are icons and a champ (which is only an extra attack, champ has no wargear options). They get random abilities, S5 and an inv (and pay through the nose for them).

-Chosen can take 5 special weapons but cannot deepstrike. They can infiltrate though. No random abilities.

-Terminators can deepstrike but can only take the single shot combi weapons.

Posted By Makaleth on 09/04/2007 11:38 PM
Cornflakes made a good point,

you can now have cheap(ish) suicide deepstriking units with 5 special weapons.
Imagine 2 squads of 5, each loaded with plasma in one and melta in the other.

pick your target people,
who cares if you get a random ability (and that they are over priced on mass)

280 points (i think) for 10 deepstriking possessed with 5 meltas and 5 plasmas!!
That still rocks (but is competing for space with the super-cheap but still one wound terminators)

As winterman said, You seem pretty confused.

I'd seriously suggest not taking what you hear your breakfast telling you as gospel,  or at least switch from cornflakes to shredded wheat!

You can attach pre-game, and then deepstrike together, if the squad and the character both become available on the same turn. It was in the FAQ. I haven't read it recently to see if it is still there, but it was last time I looked. You cannot attach them before rolling to see if they become available out of reserves, however, so they may come down separately.

I think I could see myself taking 2 units of Plaguemarines in Rhinos, 2 squads of Combi-plasma Termies, Lash Princes and Oblits.

I still don't see how it will counter Mech Eldar with clown taxis or full-blown Nidzilla tho.

Well, Plaguemarines are one of the most resilient troops against nidzilla...Losing 8/9 per turn as opposed to the 2 a normal MEQ loses. Plus they have the fists to deal with carnis and are fearless so choir is meaningless. Rest of the lists have 2+ saves, which means less losses vs zilla also.

I could see the list doing well vs zilla.

I'm not fond of the Mark of Slaanesh over the Mark of Khorne for H2H hitting.

Vs. other MEQ's MoS lets you not suffer the return attack from the X guys you drop, MoK increases the number of guys
Vs. GEQ's/Orks/Necrons/Genestealers: MoS is worthless, MoK increases the damage you deal
Vs. Vehicles: MoS is worthless, MoK increases your chances of damaging it (if you've got a powerfist)
With a powerweapon: Both marks help
With a powerfist: MoS is worthless

Obviously this is secondary to the question of either one vs. Mark of Nurgle, which also helps against enemy shooting, but I'm just not sold on Slaanesh for combat.

I'm keen on slaaneshi Termies - +1I is awfully nice, and cheap, especially for a large squad as it costs no more regardless of how big the squad is.

Mark of Slaanesh is significantly cheaper than the other marks and lets you spank Sms and fight simultaneously with raveners and simultaneously with furious charging I4 guys, and before Hormagaunts. And before waaghing Orks (haha).

For assault troops, Slaanesh or Undivided all the way.

Here comes the math of the most likely target!

9 Raptors with a power fist Sarge and Slaanesh vs. 10 bp/ccw space marines with a power fist
Raptors charge -> 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead marines.
Marines swing back -> 14 attacks, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds ~ 1.1667 dead slaaneshi marines
Raptor Fist -> 1.667 dead
Marines fist -> 1.25 dead

Raptor total: 3.667 dead
Marine total: 2.4167 dead
Marine to Raptor kill ratio: .66

8 raptors with a power fist Sarge and Khorne v. 10 bp/ccw marines with a fist
Raptors charge -> 28 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 2.33 wounds
Marines hit back -> 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 dead
Raptor fist -> 5 attacks, 2.083 dead
Marine fist -> 1.25 dead

Raptor total: 4.413
Marine total: 2.75 dead
Ratio: Marines to Raptor kill ratio .62

You're right. The boost of the MOK power fist owns. Now with a power weapon

9 Raptors with a power weapon Sarge and Slaanesh vs. 10 bp/ccw space marines with a power fist
Raptors charge -> 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead marines.
Raptor PW vet -> 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 dead marine
Marines swing back -> 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead marine
Marines fist -> 1.25 dead

Raptor kills: 3
Marine kills: 2.25
Marine to Raptor ratio: .75


8 Raptors with MOK and power weapon vet v 10 bp/ccw marines with a fist vet
Raptors charge -> 28 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 2.33 wounds
Marines hit back -> 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 dead
Raptor fist -> 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wounds -> 1.25 dead
Marine fist -> 1.25 dead

Raptor total: 3.58 dead
Marine total: 2.75 dead
Ratio: .76 marine to Raptor ratio

Slaanesh wins out slightly, as you predicted.



Having thought about it a little more, there is one place where Slaanesh utterly wins out. It rarely loses guys when it polishes off squads. You charge a 4-5 man squad of marines and odds are decent you're going to lose one Khorne guy whereas you'll mostly lose zero Slaaneshi guys. So that's a big fat plus right there since you kill without taking any casualties.

The downside, however, is frag grenades and cover. If your opponent uses cover, your Khorne marines are always going to win out.

I think I'd take Slaaneshi because it's cheap or Tzeentch/Nurgle for save/toughness. I don't think I'd bother with Khorne because it's expensive and doesn't really raise survivability in any fashion. Just provides more points for people to shoot at.

I would like to throw in that sonic blasters are nothing to laugh at. Even more so now that they keep their bp and ccw. With the tide of green coming, heavy 3 or assault 2 "bolters" are nothing to shrug off. And if the orcs have alot of open topped transports the str 8 48 inch blast, blastmaster will be very usefull.

I would bet that they can out shoot and out assault most non vehicle models out there.

I dunno 25pts is too expensive for heavy3/assault2 bolters. It's just 5 pts short of a Chaos Terminator.

Irrelevant when you can't take Termies as Troops. Something needs to go in those two slots.

Posted By Antonin on 09/05/2007 5:40 AM
You can attach pre-game, and then deepstrike together, if the squad and the character both become available on the same turn. It was in the FAQ. I haven't read it recently to see if it is still there, but it was last time I looked. You cannot attach them before rolling to see if they become available out of reserves, however, so they may come down separately.

Its still there. It was a tactic I used to use with my tac squads, making them all 9 man squads so that my AC could likely hitch a ride when he came into play at the same time.

Does the mark of Slaanesh get applied before or after powerfists initiative? I mean, if we have a squad of termies, all with powerfist/chainfist and MoS, will they hit with I1 (normal initiative is 5, but powefist hits with I1), or with I2 (Powerfist strikes at I1 but the +I bonus gets applied after it)?

BGB pg. 46, rules for power fists. See for yourself.

Hmm what are your thoughts on multiple Plague Marine 5-man squads with 2 Plasmaguns backed up by a dual lash HQ? Lash works against infantry pretty well and you'd have some plasma for dealing with Mech Eldar.