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I was crunching numbers at work today and came to the conclusion that daemons are not that bad.

I compared them to almost every assault unit I could think of (Spinegaunts, Stealers, CSM (New codex), Harlequins, Banshees, Dakkafexes, terminators), and the only one that the Daemons didn't on average beat an equivalent points worth of the assault unit was against the genestealers. 

The only problem is getting them into combat.  In Alpha/Gamma levels, Raptors and bikes will still get them there.  In Escallation, an infiltrating havok squad might do the trick (IE 4plas/melta Chosen squad).

I think a list using this would stand up well to a godzilla list.  Just make sure that you use 9 oblits for the heavy slots.

Good to hear that you ran the numbers, sounds interesting, I was begining to be more curious about it as well.  I was thinking that they might be a really great assault booster, make sure you dont get overpowered anywhere later in the game, just add the demons to any assaults that might be close, but,...

They are not scoring.

They also leave you in a position where you are short handed their points until they arrive (your other units get shot up more).

For 3 more points you could have a CSM with BP CC Bolter Frak and Krak and a better save... (and they score)

and afterall, what is an unaligned demon?  Uh, what models would you use? I'd say Furies, but they have WINGS and the new mystery demons definitely don't...

???

It just feels wrong playing any of the alligned demons as these new blah ones with no powers.... Id rather have more CSM.

I suspect non aligned demons will almost never show up anywhere...

Ummm...The lesser Daemons are scoring (Unless I missed that part somewhere...But I just went and checked the entry)

No, they're definitely cheap Fearless scoring units.

They're honestly not bad. Their only real downside is a lack of ability to do anything to an enemy tank or dreadnought. But in the right list they could certainly work. They're just not as nasty as the old Bloodletters, Daemonettes, or Furies, which were probably all a little too good for the points.

The biggest downside is that stupid godsdamned rule that they DIE if there's no icon on the table when they make their Reserve roll.  This means that in some missions half the daemon squads will die if the army's summoning units are all ones which start off the table in Escalation (Rhino-mounted, bikers, termies).  You HAVE to have at least one foot unit with an Icon, and that's often just handing free VPs to your opponent if his army does all (or mostly) start on the table.  Or it means your daemons have a good chance of coming in someplace useless if you hide the summoning unit. 

Oops my bad, perhaps I was thinking of Spawns? They don't score right? I'm still getting use to this.

Yeah, Spawn don't score. Any they have no armor save. And they're always forced to move towards the nearest enemy unit. They blow chunks. And I love the models. Sometimes I hate GW. Good thing I play Fantasy, so I can use them where they're good.

On another note, did anyone else notice that Mounted Daemonettes from Codex: Chapter Approved 2004 (originally published in WD) are being permitted for Baltimore? Methinks we could see some nasty Slaaneshi armies with the usual Lash tricks + the only nasty daemons that are left.

http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Rules/40k_lists.htm

One of the biggest downsides about generic daemons is the need to summon them,

This means that they are always a risk/probability of them not coming in when you want them to, being destroyed on the summon, being out of charge range due to scatter.

On the other hand,
they are very cheap and fairly (not very) good at assault.
This is great for Chaos as they don't really have cheap units.

But I agree with Augustus,
why not take a marine, they can shoot, they are on the board always (so there is no inherent risk) and they are just as good in combat all for 2 points extra. And you can put a heavy weapon in the squad.

Daemons could (and will) be good for counter assault (and reach) but will always be a gamble.

Daemons don't scatter either.

And for thier points they are better than almost anything else.

Hmm,

Don't scatter,
that is better than I thought,

for there points a good buy,
but the icon thingy is annoying, you can't go daemon heavy without heaps of icons and you need them on the ground.

We may be seeing a few more foot slogging CSM armies with daemons if they turn out to be a good unit to hold up people with.

I like 'em just for the sucker punch factor. Now you see 5 Bikes (Tzeentch or Nurgle,) zooming at you, then BAM, now it's 5 Bikes with 20 odd lesser Daemons assaulting you.

Zoned

Well now the bikes deliver both the daemons and the termies.

The reserves thing certainly is problematic.  I had a game where I moved my bikes into a vulnerable position to get some reserves coming in and out of five squads none arrived.  The timing is even more crucial than it used to be as now units have to get really close to the enemy to get the Daemons where you want them.  They are a gambler's unit, but they do work ok.  I still just wish that they didn't feel the need to get rid of Daemons with character.

Samwise kinda said what I have been thinking,

These guys are good (no real question about that)
but they are just a gamble, not just with them but also their delivery system (bikes are expensive)

But I guess they just seem to so mmush less customisable than the previous daemons,
they are only cheap HTH gribblies. Nothing more.

Zoned,
that is the nice bit about these daemons,
but if you fail your reserve roll (remember no sacred values any more) it's still jut 5 bikers (which are nice, but not great by themselves)

A gamblers unit,
I guess I prefer stabilty when constructing tactics,
not a - If I fail this roll this unit is so stuffed.

:-)

Between the Fearlessness and lack of scatter on summoning they're overall less of a gamble than they were before. But the lack of sacred numbers does indeed hurt.

I have found them to be a good at supporting assaults. For escalation I have found myself taking a cheap Havok squad with an icon to ensure I don't lose them from a poor summoning roll.

I wouldn't use a havok unit. Generally you deploy the havoks in your backfield to lend fire support (Plus it takes slots away from oblits/preds). Chosen are the best for the delivery in escalation. They are effectively an infiltrating havok squad (assuming you only give them specials), and if you have escalation, you will have infiltrate as well, so you'll have them in range of the enemy to assault when they come in. (Start 18" away, move 6", deepstrike 6", assault 6").

Let's see before we have Power Weapon, Rending, or Crazy Shooting Deamons that Scattered 2D6, had Deamonic Instability, low toughness and a 5+ Inv. Save.

Now we have a Marine statline with +1 attack, that shows up exaclty where you want them, has a 12+ threat range from the Icon, are fearless, and a 5+ Invulnerable Save.

I am not complaining.

(BTW, Horrors are my vote for best lesser deamon model.)

I am reposting this list here as it is still amazing. I fought this again and it was still competative. I scored a victory but only by about 350 points in a 2500 point game. (Although I would consider this opponent one of the toughest players that I know).

2 lash princes

3 squads of 5 chosen w 5 meltaguns icon of Chaos Glory
6 squads of 5 chaos marines w/ 1 meltagun and icon of Chaos Glory
6 squads of 10 lesser demons
3 squads of 3 bikes with 2 melta guns and icon of Chaos Glory


The only problem with this list is its lack of ranged firepower. The meltas are great at preventing vehicles from coming too close but otherwise this was the biggest liability.

My opponent went first and I was dumb in placing a falcon which he blew to pieces in the first turn.

But this was a lot of scoring units and even if we had played escalation 9 icons would have started on the board. Not much of a chance of losing them all.

The fact that the demons can DS within 6" and then assault was still great in this game as it sort of caused the summoning unit support the charge to come in with the demon unit.

My personal highlight was when 20 demons charged 10 harlequins and the harlies won combat and only lost 4 guys and caught both running units.

Orion

I used to run 2x 6 demonettes in 1500 points, and they would often win games for me. The warp scream was part of the beauty, getting my FCharging speed lord in at an effective I7, though killing carnifex with 6 girls in 1 turn was a nice bit too. And I can't remember how many land raiders I rent open with the ladies.

Now I'll be using 1x 12 demonettes in 2000 points, and I don't anticipate they'll be winning games for me. Gonna have them in for old times sake mostly, and there's a chance I'll be taking 3 MoCU termies with plasma guns in their place. Same points, but can strike far off my line and actually kill stuff before being taken out.

We shall see.

- Salvage

Dave Taylor's now advised me that Mounted Daemonettes will only be allowed to Lost and the Damned armies:

Posted By Orion_44 on 10/02/2007 6:02 AM
My personal highlight was when 20 demons charged 10 harlequins and the harlies won combat and only lost 4 guys and caught both running units.

Orion

Daemons are fearless in the new codex...

Fearless + Sweeping Advance makes them a nice unit to go with deepstriking termies.

Fearless makes them a nice unit period.

Skyth: You are right, well he is the one that rolled for them to run, I had killed 14 of the twenty in that first turn and I think I had 8 rending hits that he failed all the saves on. But it was still fun none the less.

Orion