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I was wondering what people think about running Jain Zar in a squad of banshees (in a serpent) versus an Avatar as an HQ.  Assume that the army consists of a mix of foot and vehicles.

The advantages I see for the Avatar are of course the fearlessness it provides to troops within 12", durability, and ability to engage any type of unit.

Jain Zar makes the unit of banshees she is with fearless and provides 4 S6 attacks in CC.  However the furious charge means that the Banshees vs a MEQ unit will strike first, hit on 3's and wound on 4's.  The normal problem with Banshees is that they hit on 4's and wound on 5's normally.

Do you all think the trade off between the Avatar and Jain Zar can justify replacing with the Phoenix lord?

 

Orion

Also take into acct that  on the charge, Jain Zar has 5 attacks and is strength 7. Her shooting attack is no joke either, she comes equipped with a assault 3 (strength 5 AP2 ) weapon. That not bad, not bad at all.

As far as the trade off, tough call. It really depends on the overall theme for your army. If your approach is more static and laid back, then the Avatar could be for you. If your force is more assaulty by nature, than Jain Zar maybe the ticket.

Just my 2c's.

Jain Zar has the furious charge rule, but she does not confer that ability to a banshee squad, so against MEQs, the banshees will hit on 4+ and wound on 5+, as normal. In fact, furious charge doesn't increase a model's weapon skill, so even if the banshees did get it, they would still hit on 4+.

I would say the only advantage Jain Zar has over the Avatar isn't offence but mobility. She can fleet, which the Avatar can't, she can also ride in a transport.

I like to use a Warlock Bodyguard, I could see myself adding her to it to fleet across the table in a purely infantry list with no Wraithlords or grav tanks. The Avatar takes hits or ignores hits that would go into vehicles or monstrous creatures which can be a bonus. 4W and 4++ fun-fun.

And I don't personally like Wave Serpents, altho I suppose they tend to work out OK. You can actually take 10 banshees + Jain Zar + a Fortune/Doom Farseer. If you really wanted to. Don't forget those fearless banshees can charge and tie up more than one squad. You could probably do w/o the Exarch in that case, I find they tend to get smoked after getting picked out one way or another w/ their 3+ save.

So if you really want a good chance of hitting the enemy hard on your turn 2 or turn 3, Jain Zar. If you don't mind the more moderate approach of the Avatar, then the Avatar.

Personally I love the Avatar, I use marching Guardians and Dire Avengers very aggresively and he really helps them out w/ being Fearless. BS 5 melta gun is always fun too. It helps when everytime I look at it I see my eventual FW purchase XD.

shirou, quite right about the WS vs I on furious charge, I confused enhance there for a second. I don't have my codex but I thought she did confer the furious charge on her unit of Banshees as part of her rules. If not then that answers my own question as the +1S is really what I was focusing on.

Orion

Nope, she gets furious charge but her banshees do not. All in all she isn't bad but I find that its difficult to fit her into an army properly (she really doesn't have a place in mine) but your mileage may vary.

From Jain Zar's entry: "Furious Charge: Specialising in devastating assaults, Jain Zar is a terrifying sight when leaping into battle. She has the Furious Charge special rule."

There is nothing to suggest that she confers that ability to a banshee squad that she joins, and thus she does not. Take for contrast Karandras's stealth ability, where the rules state explicitly that "this ability is conferred to any unit of Striking Scoripions Karandras joins."

Sorry, as a fellow Eldar player, I certainly wish JZ gave banshees S4 on the charge. That would have made her well worth her points, but as things stand, I think the Avatar is a better choice. Of course, this really depends more on your army composition than anything else.

In a combined arms army, and within the parameters you stipulate, I'd pick the Avatar every time. CC goddess or not, she's still relying on an AV12, H-field-less skimmer to get into combat, and that is simply not reliable enough. Use her with a 5-person squad of Banshees in a Falcon and maybe we'll talk, though even then, I'd wonder why not Yriel instead (or just a squad of Harlies!).

Of all the Phoenix Lords Jain zar is that only one I would bother with. She is plain nasty.

Either of those given H.Q. choices are viable, so try them both out!