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Assuming the following:
    - The HQ choice in question is a Crisis Suit Commander (either Shas'el or Shas'o)
    - Price is an object, but is one of loose bindings

What is the optimal Tau Commander build?

I know this is a fairly broad question, since there are plenty of what ifs and what abouts out there, so let me focus this a bit.

My brother, who plays Tau, plays against my Black Templars and Imperial Guard on a regular basis, although my Templars usually hit the field more often than not. I'm trying to help him write up a more competitive army list, which I'll give a rough layout of in a moment. For the time being, though, I'm focusing on his HQ.

He fields a Shas'O w/ Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Iridium Armor, Stimm Injector, Shield Generator, Vectored Retro-thrusters (idk if that's the right name - It gives him the Hit & Run USR), HW Multi-tracker, and two bodyguards.

Bodyguards are: Shas'vre w/ Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW Multi-tracker

I don't know exact points values, but I do know that we disagree on construction. He wants to beast out his HQ with every ridiculous upgrade imaginable, creating a monster HQ unit, while I've suggested a lighter version in the form of a Shas'el with two Shas'vre Bodyguards. Not nearly as survivable, obviously, but with only Mutlitrackers, Plasma/MP, and Targeting Arrays, I think they make a decent, shooty HQ that saves points for the rest of his army, which is as follows:

HQ - see above

HQ - Ethereal w/ 8 Honor Guard

EL - 6 Stealth Suits w/ Targeting Array, Bonded

EL - 6 Stealth Suits w/ Targeting Array, Bonded

EL - 2 Crisis Suits w/ Fireknife, HW Multitracker, Targeting Array, Bonded

TR - 8 FW w/ Shas'ui, Bonding Knife

TR - 8 FW w/ Shas'ui, Bonding Knife

TR - 8 FW w/ Shas'ui, Bonding Knife

TR - 8 FW w/ Shas'ui, Bonding Knife

FA - 2 Piranhas w/ Fusion Blasters

FA - 8 Pathfinders w/ 3 Rail Rifles, Devilfish

FA - 6 Vespid

HS - Hammerhead w/ Railgun, SMS, Disruption Field, Flechette Dischargers, Multi-tracker

HS - Hammerhead w/ Railgun, SMS, Disruption Field, Flechette Dischargers, Multi-tracker

HS - One of the following, depending on who he's fighting:
    A) 2 Broadside Battlesuits w/ Targeting Array, HW Multitracker, Shield Drones
    B) Sniper Drone Team (just one for now, up to 3 soon)

I thought about putting this in the army list section, but seeing as how I'm trying to get advice on Tau HQ units (as well as a few other things regarding this list against Templars and Guard), I think the 40K Tactics section is as good a place as any.

CK

If you are searching for some really good Tau advice you might want to take a look at the tactica forum of AdvancedTauTactica. There are some really well written articles in there, especially in the academy. For now, you'll have to do with my advice.

The best way to field the obligatory commander for the tau is without a bodyguard. The bodyguard removes the independant character status, meaning your commander won't be able to hide behind your other units anymore. The only reason to add a bodyguard to the commander is when your elite slots are all full and if you already have 2 commanders, so basically only add the bodyguard if you really want extra crisis suits and there is no other way to field them.
About the weapon loadout of the commander, this depends entirely upon the selection of the rest of the army. Crisis suits can fill most roles if you give them the right weaponry for it. Just playtest and try to find out in which department your army is lacking and gear your crisis suits to fill that gap. One of the upgrades I read in your post is absolutely crap and should never be taken though and that is the Iridium Armour upgrade. Spending points to lower the mobility of my commander? No thank you.

I know you asked only for comments about the commander but I can't help commenting on the army list in total as well. Let's start with the second HQ choice. Ethereals suck, a lot. Basically, ditch him unless it's absolutely necessary to have him, than just ditch the honor guard. If you really want leadership take commander shadowsun as your commander, it's a way better option. Otherwise I'd suggest another basic shas'el or shas'o.
The crisis team has a bonding knife? It's a 2-man squad, it won't ever get under 50% strength without being annihilated completely, it's a waste of points. Pathfinders shouldn't be given railrifles, markerlights are great and you spend points to replace them? The Piranha's could use a targetting array and the Hammerheads should be given Decoy Launchers and Target Locks instead of the Flechette Dischargers.
Why do you have such a large fire warrior static shooting base? Kroot shoot better point for point and they can infiltrate. Also when you field Broadsides they need Advanced Stabilization Systems. It's really important that they are able to move and fire.

Basically I'd just recommend you to take a look around on advanced tau tactica. Especially the academy articles are very nice.

I hope I have been of some help,
Airmaniac

Thanks for the quick reply, Airmaniac! I'll be sure to check out AdvancedTauTactica, and will refer my brother that way. I think he'll take any advice a little more seriously that way - that's the thing with siblings, it seems being an immediate blood relative somehow detracts from the viability of a statement

I believe the reason he has the ethereal is because it allows him to field BS4 Fire Warriors, as well as make everything within line of sight Stubborn or something. I don't remember the exact verbiage of the rule, but I do know that he put him in there to keep the FW gunline from running away.

One quick thing - is it at all viable to make his infantry base completely mobile and give them all Pulse Carbines? I mentioned it once when talking about how his army would then be able to move and fire to full effect, and he seemed to catch interest in it. I wanted to be sure that the idea isn't complete garbage, as I can see several problems arising from taking soft infantry with an 18" range gun - you could call them Dire Warriors, like Dire Avenger and Fire Warriors mixed together. Or, maybe Fire Avengers....

The omission of the ASS on the Broadsides is my bad. I forgot about that - he usually takes it, much to my dismay when I'm IG.

Again, thanks for the site reference and the quick reply. I'm sure our games will be a lot more fun as a result.

CK

Optimal Build for HQ:

Shas'el (cheap one with less wounds): Targetting Array, Missile Pods, Plasma Rifle, HW-Multi-Tracker - 97 Points.

You could throw the cyclic Ion blaster on him and the plasma rifle if you want to get close, and then he could use the shield generator if you want to get really close and risk being targeted, but it makes him really good at taking out Marines or terminators since he's got a good shot to put out decent high AP fire.

Most of the time, you're just fine going with the 97 Point config and keeping him all by himself, using his Independent Character status to leave him untargetable out in the open because he's not the closest unit for enemies to fire at. This combined with his mobility keeps him safe from shooting and assaults if you can plan ahead and move away from opposing assault units.

For this reason, never take a Retinue for him unless you run out of slots for you Elites and want more crisis suits, because the retinue means he can be targeted.

Rather than repeat all the advice given already, I'll just say "ditto" and add that I've had some fun (and a bit of success) with a deepstriking suicide shas'el with plasma, fusion and retro-thrusters. Not exactly efficient, but fairly cheap.

I'd like to point out that your brother's commander is illegal, though. He has four weapons and support systems: Plasma, missile, Shield generator, and retro-thrusters. Suits can only have three plus hardwired systems.

Ill go in a different direction here

The main thing you need to remember is -

What is your HQs primary function-

Is he there A.because you must field him?

Is he there for B. fire support?

Is he there for C. tank hunting?

A. make him as cheep as possible so you can spend the points elsware in the army

B.Works best much like you built him(plas/missle/shield everything else hardwired) but with 2 shield drone and a generator with his bodyguards toting plasma, twin linked missle pods multi traker, failsafe detonator(for those time the iridium roll keeps you from getting away from CC) and 2 shield drones of thier own each

C.Send him in alone (usually deepstrike) as above but switch out his plasma rifle for a fusion gun. he is incredibly resiliant. its how i run mine.

 

3 Minor porblems with his list

1All his firewarriors should be mounted in a fish and each fish should at minimum have decoy launcher, multi tracker, fletchette launchers,  smart missle system, targeting array. it is brutally effective against a CC army like BT. remember footslogging tau=dead tau

2The hammerheads need a target lock. if you need a S10 AP1 shot at something your wasting the SMS if you can't fire it at something else.

3.Loose the etherial. the HQ crisis suit is mandatory now, no need to waste points on a second HQ that could make your army run away if he dies. especially when the slot could be filled by a much more effective crisis suit command team.

 

P.S. All members of the HQ/bodyguard have access to the armory, only the squad leader in a normal crisis team does. it makes crisis teams in the HQ slot much more effective than putting them in the elite slot.

 

 

Do Crisis teams really need access to the armoury? Elite Crisis teams already have what they need to get the job done, I think.

With armory access you can bring a two weapon + targetting array + hardwired multitracker suit. It's pricey but BS4 is not to be trifled with when we're talking about tau guns.

But yeah, different commanders for different roles. The best shooty has already been put forward, with the Shas'el + targetting array.

I personally am very fond of Shas'o, Cyclonic ion, Missile Pod, Vectored thrusters, HW multitrack, Stim injectors. At 127 points he doesn't cost too much and does a great job tarpitting enemy units in assault that lack power weapons. Jump out on the enemies turn to reposition, fire, and go right back in. Drives devastator squads nuts!

I like the BS 5 Cyclic Ion Blaster but it's only 18". I don't know what you would back it up with, Burst Cannons possibly or probably Plasma Rifles.

Thing is the BS5 could be wasted just by your opponent staying away. A MP/PR set-up is probably best just to take advantage of an extra couple turns of shooting.

Moz' MP/Cyclic Ion sounds like a good versatile combo.

Can't go wrong with missile pods.

My old Theoryhammer lists had an anti-infantry squad of BS5 Cyclic/BC + a bodyguard w/ the template gun/probably BC and then another guy that was probably BC/flamer. I think now I would give them Missile Pods instead of Burst Cannons, they're just too good.

Thanks for the feedback, y'all. This is helping me as much as it is him, since I'm thinking about making a small (<1000pts) Tau army in the somewhat distant future.

@Voodoo: that configuration seems to make the most sense to me. Having a BS5 Crisis suit with an extra wound to boot would seem like the way to go, but I guess his commander is envious of other armies' abilities to take beast HQ units.

@Sir_Crispy: My bad on the listing of his upgrades. The retro-thrusters were a late addition that he swapped out for Iridium Armor when he found out what the previously mentioned thrusters do for him in CC. Some of those upgrades (where allowed) are hardwired, so that's another foul-up on my part for not remembering the configuration exactly.

@mughi3: The ethereal is a justification of fielding the old Aun'shi model (awesome Special Character, don't know why they canned him - other than the fact that he was a 12 dollar special character in a blister pack), and I think he might be tossing him, seeing as how his Ld7/8 army doesn't want to rely on lucky rolls for a morale check on the turn their T3 W2 Ethereal bites the dust.

@Moz & Tacobake: The CIB/MP or CIB/PR are two combinations that I think would work very well for him, as it would allow the commander to kill tons of horde units while still remaining effective against heavy infantry, especially 2+ saves - Five shots from a BS5 CIB statistically kills 0.60 Terminators per turn, whereas a BS5 Fusion Blaster statistically drops only 0.46 Terminators per turn. On top of that, the FB has a 6" shorter range, and cannot kill hordes of models as the CIB does. To its credit, it can - and does - threaten armor, however, which is something a S3 AP4 weapon can never do, no matter how many shots it has.

From what I've gathered, it sounds like a Shas'el with Targeting Array, HW Multitracker, Stimm Injector, Cyclic Ion Blaster, and Plasma Rifle will be a winner. That's 50 + 5 + 5 + 10 + 15 + 20 = 105pts. Not bad for an infantry killing beastie.

Thanks again for the input, all. It will definitely go to good use - I've already yanked out some of my hair when he playtested Vectored Retro-thrusters on a Fireknife, which makes me wonder how badly my infantry will get thrashed when he zooms away in the assault phase, range snipes my Power Fist, and then dives back in with 4 wounds and Feel No Pain!!

CK

I'm a Shas'o man myself. Shas'o with plasma, fusion, vectored thrusters and HW multi-tracker. He is a surgeon in my army. DS (when available) to take out the more expensive tank (something that costs more than him). Then see what happens. Against infantry I've found the +1 wound with the Shas'o is a huge deal. Since he primarily has 12" guns he is close to the enemy. He is going to take some hits as he may or may not reliably use his IC status to protect himself (there may not be friendly tau around). That fourth wound has kept him alive quite a few times. Because of the shorter range guns the Hit and run feature is a great addition as well. Average run away is 10" With a little luck you can get outside of your enemies charge range when you run away. And if you do get charged, people forget he is WS 4, 4 attacks, and S5. He can actually put up a bit of a fight.

Sure he dies to other ICs and hidden powerfists, but its my skill that keeps those weapons away from him. When was the last time a devy squad had a P-fist?

Posted By Jayden63 on 10/24/2007 11:05 PM
 When was the last time a devy squad had a P-fist?

I'm not sure, but it was probably in a GW sample list.

So, from those who know, what's the best way to equip an HQ suit with a cyclic ion blaster? All horde killing or diversify? And if he's all horde (that's what I'm thinking), partner the CIB with burst cannon and vectored thrusters in case he gets caught in assault?

Missilepod has good synergy with the cyclonic ion since they are both multishot AP4 weapons. The MP performs like 2/3rds of a burst cannon against T3 5+ saves and only improves as the T goes up. It's vastly superior to the Burst cannon on 4+ saves.
Additional benefit of giving your HQ something to shoot on the first turn, with a possible chance to pen hostile skimmers before they move. It's not hard to sell Missile pods, they are just awesome.

This is what I run on one, then another with a Fusion Blaster in place of the Missiles. I accompany them with similarly armed bodyguards, as I've used all my Elite slots already.

I do tend to Deep Strike the Fusion Blaster to kill tanks.

The on thing I have seen here that I have to disagree strongly with, is the idea of using drones, shields, etc. etc. There's no reason to lose your suits to shooting (they move-shoot-move, it's just too easy to hide them), and if they're caught in CC, I'd rather the combat would end that turn, because they're going to die anyway, and I'd rather it be during his assault phase than mine.

Ultimately I find the durability of Crisis suits to be totally irrelevant. They won't get shot, they will never win in CC. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but accurate enough that you shouldn't spend points or brain cycles on making them tougher, just make them as shooty as you can for the points, and accept that you might not roll well, might not get the best terrain, and may have to give some squads up. When that happens, give them up during the other guy's assault phase, and far from the rest of your army.

The other day I played a Nid list with this general idea in mind, and despite rolling an average of about 1.3, I still pulled out a draw.

I actually gave the other guy my dice at the end of it all.

 

That really depends on the role they are used in, my shas'o has 1 job and only 1 job-kill armor. he has the 2 highest strength guns he can take-fussion/missle pod but he needs the shield generator and drones to stay alive because he deepstrikes in and can't move on the turn he arrives. he also has iridium armor which means he isn't guaranteed to get out of LOS. he can and has taken a withering hail of fire on more than 1 occasion and lived to tell the tale.  thanks in no small part to being well equiped with shield drones and other wargear.

Posted By Corpsman_of_Krieg on 10/23/2007 1:59 PM
Assuming the following:
    - The HQ choice in question is a Crisis Suit Commander (either Shas'el or Shas'o)
    - Price is an object, but is one of loose bindings

What is the optimal Tau Commander build?

The cheaper guy with guns. Exactly which will depend, but missle and plasma works well in the current metagame. I fail to see the need for extra wounds.

Posted By Phryxis on 10/25/2007 9:10 PM
They won't get shot, they will never win in CC.

I don't want to start a flame war of Shas'o vs Shas'ei but I'll say this in favour of Shas'o.  For 15 points they get WS4 (instead of 3), +1 Wound, +1 Attack and +1 ld giving them Ld10.  He can hold up a bit better in close combat and Ld10 can come in handy.  15 points?  That's not a lot in 2000.  Besides they're Mr. Awesome rather than Mr. Spunky with a fancy scope on his Missile Pod.

And they do pretty good in CC, especially if you throw something else in with them.  You don't look for combat but it's better to charge than be charged if they get your back to the table edge.

I always thought that you wanted your Tau units to eat it in round one of close combat so that your opponent's squad couldn't hide in melee during your next shooting phase.

Of course, I bet you could ensure that to happen with the Shofixti Glory Device (or whatever the Tau call it).

Posted By Iorek on 10/30/2007 12:17 PM
Shofixti Glory Device

Any day that involves Starcontrol 2 references that just happen to get slipped in there is a good day indeed.

RESURRECTION!

I once got something like 33 in a row.  Which shows both a) the fact I counted and b) the fact that my brother and I played that much.

And we now return to our regulary scheduled thread.

p.s.  BS5 Missile Pods 4tw

I have dug up an old article I wrote last year. It is an optimised build, but by no means the only one. - The Firebase Shas'O. Its very good for 'static' Tau, of less use in mech lists.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/forumid/18/postid/64223/view/topic/Default.aspx

Link for the lazy.  Like me.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/forumid/18/postid/64223/view/topic/Default.aspx