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I don't remember. It was 2nd Edition ? And was that in the core, or in a supplementary codex ?

ISTR they were T4 in the 3rd Edition core, so I'm thinking it was 2nd Rulebook or 2nd Codex? Or did they do it in a 1st (Rogue Trader) codex? Was definately T3 in Rogue Trader book.

When the SM Army list was first released in WD (this is Rogue Trader era), Space Marines became Toughness 4 and got a couple of other nifty rules bonuses at the time (although I can't remember what they were anymore).

They basically wrote: Marines just aren't as awesome as we hoped, so we're changing the rules.

And thus began GW's long obsession with the Space Marine.

Early first edition (RT), it was 1988 or so. (Coming up on 20 years of Increasing Marine Coolness!) The original WD articles were reprinted in 1989's "Warhammer 40,000 Compendium", aka the Red Book, which is where I have the info and where you could probably find it easiest... including the classic quote Yakface references above.

IIRC it was the same time they brought in overwatch and Know No Fear (at the time it was 'shaken' bascially marines would have to fail 2 leadership checks to flee).

And IIRC all this was done with no change in point values. cause y'know, they're marines.

Hi All,

I've been playing 40K since the Rogue Trader days. Marines back then were T3. Since most of my fellow players were Marines and I was the only Ork player in the area, I used to brag that T4 was the one stat Orks had better than Marines.

This all changed *before* second edition. A generic Marine army list - which superseded that in Chapter Approved, the First Book of the Astronomican - was released in an early 100's WD (105 or thereabouts). This listed Marines as having T4. My brag went down the lavvy at that point.

I may be wrong about the actual WD issue number but I seem to remember it appeared around the same time as the first Eldar Harlequins list.

Regards,
Colin

Posted By yakface on 10/27/2007 1:04 AM

They basically wrote: Marines just aren't as awesome as we hoped, so we're changing the rules.

And thus began GW's long obsession with the Space Marine.

Do i detect a bitter tone there Yak.  Space Marines FTW

Its not space marines FTW, it's space marines FTM (for the money). and that's why they win

hell yeah thats true.

It makes sense for space marines to be S4 T4, back in those days you could still get +1S and +1T for being a hero, I think the stat changes are fro the better, now s4 for someone who is not a marine means the are freakishly strong.

the big change in rogue trader IIRc was the jump from 4+ save to 3+ save, and that didnt mean too much until they brought in the ap rules in v3.0 That was the best change to the game, though ap3 and 2 weapons should ber slightly rarer and marines should cost more.

As more background information was released on Marines, it would make sense they improved like that. There's the black carapace, increased musculature, more effective blood clotting, all in all compared to a Guardsman they should be T4.