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Hey all.. I've been expanding the Godzilla version of my Tyranid force from 1500 to 1850 (largely because painting/modeling one Carnifex is so much more fun than the same for 20 gaunts), and I have two questions, one technical and one philosophical.

The latter first.. what's the big deal about Godzilla lists that seems to irritate people so much?  I find my list fun, but I haven't had a tremendous amount of success with it.  I do pretty well against some lists, but I find that strong lists do just fine against me.  My model count is low, only one of the monstrous creatures will move faster than infantry, and invulnerable saves are almost non-existant.  4/5 lascannon wounds kill a 'fex more quickly than most troop squads.  And power-fists make short work of most 'fexes likely to be fielded.  So where's the cheese?

As for my list, I have two Tyrants, two elite 'fexes and two heavy 'fexes.  When I model my new carnifex, am I better off going elite, and leaving the final heavy spot for some Zoanthropes (extra armour penetrating/Ld-reducing) or going heavy and leaving the third Elite spot open for Lictors?  I realize Lictors are generally costly and risky, but in this sort of list I figure they can be effective in holding off a few heavy weapons shots.

Thanks.

 

I am a huge fan of lictors and here is why...When you destroy a vehicle with the aforementioned Zoeys or heavy fexes, they leave a little piece of are terrain behind. Imagine that vehicle was a transport and the squad it formerly carried is now entangled. In comes mr. lictor, BANG and you have an instant assault on the hapless squad. Really really nasty vs. tau and imp guard. Not too shabby.
To answer your first qustion.. The reason people get so pissed about the zilla is simple. What oter army could field a critter that has 8 shots at S6 that re-roll all fails to hit AND to wound! ANd at the low low price of 115 points? Holy crappers batman! And when you field two or three in combo with two or three heavy fexes, the rate of fire you put out, well, we just can't cope.

Posted By Gobstomp420 on 10/31/2007 10:20 PM
I am a huge fan of lictors and here is why...When you destroy a vehicle with the aforementioned Zoeys or heavy fexes, they leave a little piece of are terrain behind. Imagine that vehicle was a transport and the squad it formerly carried is now entangled. In comes mr. lictor, BANG and you have an instant assault on the hapless squad. Really really nasty vs. tau and imp guard. Not too shabby.
To answer your first qustion.. The reason people get so pissed about the zilla is simple. What oter army could field a critter that has 8 shots at S6 that re-roll all fails to hit AND to wound! ANd at the low low price of 115 points? Holy crappers batman! And when you field two or three in combo with two or three heavy fexes, the rate of fire you put out, well, we just can't cope.

It is a common misconception that wrecks are area terrain. They are not. They:

1. Continue to block line of sight as if they were intact.
2. Count as difficult terrain for infantry movement.
3. count as difficult terrain for vehicles with a higher frontal armor but impassable terrain for other vehicles.
4. Provide a 4+ cover save for models on top or looking around it.

But they are not area terrain.

 

But back to Gobstomp:

What do you currently use in your Godzilla army (including the configurations of your Tyrants and fexes)?

My guess is that if you aren't overly successive with Godzillas you probably have a very sub-optimal list which is why you don't get what the "big deal" with them is.

 

 

Off the top of my head, my 1500 point list has 2 tyrants, one with wings and dual TL-devourers, one with a Venom Cannon, TL-devourers, and 3 guards (appropriate WS, BS, Str, and In upgrades on each).

2 Heavy gun-fexes w/ BS upgrade and 5th wound (usually one with extended carapace).

2 Elite Carnifexes, one with dual TL-devourers and one with Scything Talons & WS upgrade.

1 Lictor.

2 squads of Hormagaunts for the troops.


I realize that a second dakka-fex for the elite spot would be preferable to the talons, but that's how my models are right now.. and I've managed to have a surprising amount of success with that CC fex (though I realize that this means little in the long run).

I've also run this list sacrificing some hormagaunts to make one of the elite 'fexes heavy, adding a 2+ save and 5th wound.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Once you get your full complement of fexes, you want lots of gaunts or you want raveners.

I like ravs, myself, but they fit the 'not very many models' method to the Zilla list very well.

But yeah, with only one dakkafex, you're certainly going to have firepower problems and that's probably why you're losing.

It's no wonder you don't see what's the big deal about nidzilla. The standard nidzilla army has 3 times your Dakkafex firepower and 50% more Gunfex firepower. That's why you're not feeling the cheddar (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Yeah, if you want a "standard" godzilla list that is why everyone hates them you start like this:

Flying tyrant with dual twinlinked devourers
Walking tyrant /w tl devourer & venom cannon, 2-3 guard (depending on points)
3 elite carnifexes with twinlinked devourers and bs upgrade
2 gunfexes with 5 wounds each.

There's some flexibility in the 3rd HS choice - some take a third gunfex, other take zoanthropes (for the screaming choir and warp blasts).

Hormagaunsts are a pretty poor choice as well. Most people rely on either spinegaunts (dirt cheap), rippers, or genestealers.

Basically, at 1500 points, you should have 2 HQ, 3 Elites, and 3 HS, with no fewer than 34 T6 wounds.

Thanks for the advice guys.. it didn't really occur to me that I could be cramming any more than 6 MCs into a 1500 point list, but I guess I can..

So the question remains, when transitioning from a 7-8 MC 1500 point list to an 8 MC 1850 list, after possibly a bit of upgrading, what else do you suggest filling out the remaining 200 or so points with? What's the most efficient use of troops/FA to complement the 'zillas? More cheap bodies? Fast attack? Genestealers don't seem ideal to me, as they're quite expensive, and not so effective in only one or two squads.. though they could make an excellent magnet to draw fire away from the MCs.

Resist upgrading your MCs in most cases since the upgrades generally aren't worth the points.

The complimentary units for Godzilla lists really are:

Raveners, Gaunts (Spine or Terma) or Genestealers. So you fill up the extra points with those units as they suit your tastes.


The Genestealers you keep in small units and hide them behind your MCs until you need a counter-assault unit. You don't ever let them get shot so they get to perform where they excel: in close combat. This also helps to make sure your MCs don't ever stop firing (which is important).

Spinegaunts, on the other hand, form tarpit units to stop enemy models from reaching your MCs in combat and they can be used (if large enough to remain in Synapse) to range ahead and enage shooty enemy units to prevent them from firing at your MCs. If you do tarpit an enemy CC unit trying to assault your MCs you'll then want to do a counter-charge with whatever counter-charge units you have available: Raveners, stealers or MCs if necessary (with the best for that job being the Tyrant w/ Tyrant Guard unit).

Raveners should always be taken in single model units and can be used as counter-charge units or as lone table-quarter/objective grabbers. Like Stealers you can advance them behind the MCs until you need them and then their fast movement allows them to pop out and strike where you need.

Although Rippers are used by some players to fill out points, frankly, they suck in every way compared to Spinegaunts, so if you want a tarpit unit (which is what Rippers are), stick with Spinegaunts.

Termagaunts are sometimes used instead of Spinegaunts, and while you lose a few models for your tarpits you gain a unit that can pump out some decent shooting at certain enemy units.

In either case (Spinegaunts or Termagaunts) you probably want to go with 3 Zoanthropes instead of the third Gunfex to make sure you keep Synapse around even in Escalation games (where the Tyrants start off the board).

swize, a question for you, do you want to play 'fair' or just go all out to win. There isnt a right or wrong answer to this question, it depends on your ploay group.

Generally speaking it is good to be able to field a tourney ready army such as Yakface suggests. However in my test games with my WIP nids I prefer a toned down version, it can still win but has far more flavour in my opinion. Dakkafexes are just wrong they are too powerful and too cheap and you can take six of them if you liked. This is a bad combination IMHO.

I find there are planety of good choices in the nid list that are perfectly fieldable but not the obvious cutting edge, they are eclipsed rather than bad. Lictors enter this category - with caution, winged warriors certainly apply - if armed correctly (adrenals, talons and rending).

My WIP list has two Zoantropes, two dakkafex, a flyrant, raveners, winged warriiors and the rest varied troops.

In one case I disagree with the general thinking on power lists too: If you want maxed out gaunts the best you can take a devourer gaunts, followed by maybe spinegaunts and termagants never.
The reason is because of the extra range and shot of the Devourer. The extra 6" makes all the difference and double firepower needs no explaining. Sure the gun is weaker but living ammo more makes up for that giving it good killing power up to T4. I am not so concerned about the AP. Spinegaunts are good because of the cost, but weaker in overall firepower/cost than Devourer gaunts, you also get a reroll somewhere with the ammo but do so at a more critical point - statistically I would rather reroll my 4+ than my 3+, you get a bigger performance jump. This same benefit alos applies to the devourer.
Saying this I dont use them, nids have more than enough devourers anyway and takeing devourer gaunts goes against my philosophy of play. I take generic termagants (because they came in the Macragge box), because they are supposedly the standard gaunt and they look good. owever were I to fall from grace and cheese out a zilla list penny packet stealers backed up with devourergaunts would be my choice of troops.

I've actually got a nice spreadsheet covering devourer, fleshborer, and spinefist with and without toxin sacs against units ranging from T2 no save to T8 2+ save with both chance to wound, wounds per point, and models per wound worked out.

I'll post it when I get home tonight.

Ok, uploaded it to My web space

And while you are correct that Devourer (with toxin sacs) is the most efficient marine killer on a per model basis, it is actually fleshborers that are more effective on a per-points basis. (on average 8 8/99 gaunts @ 6 points each vs 5 2/5 @ 10 points each). You save a whole 5 points!

Against terminators, it's the same story, 10 4/5 with devourers, 16 with fleshborers... but to field those, you're paying 108 for the devourers and 96 for the fleshborers.

Interestingly, against T3 4+ saves, Devourers (no toxin sacs) take top slot, while against guard spinefists are the most effective.

Tragicnut, sorry I disagree. assuming you take gaunts in a rasonable quantity (16+) practicality of spacing means a fair few of the termagants wont get to shoot, while all the devourergaunts will at the same distance. Further out you will only get partial shooting but at those ranges termagants just have to fleet instead.

On paper the stats may show termagants having a better chance of dropping Meq, however in the field I dont think this is true.

I dont have a spreadsheet package on my PC, how do devourers without toxin compare to those with. In test games I prefered to keep devourergaunts at 7pts and rely on numbers. Once you are paying 10pts a model you are paying too much for gaunts IMHO, 7pts is about as much as I will agree to pay for them. The points effciency on Meq/point invested is only part of the story.

It takes (in theory) 9 9/11 (68 8/11 points)  Devo gaunts /wo toxin sacs or 5 2/5 (54 points) with toxin sacs for MEq killing.

Pasted table below showing against GEq, Tau, MEq, and Terminators.

<table width="1088" height="455" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="1" align="" x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse;" summary=""> <col width="64" span="17" style="width: 48pt;"></col> <tbody> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td width="64" height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;">Points</td> <td width="64" style="width: 48pt;">Points Per Wound</td> <td width="64" class="xl26" style="width: 48pt;">Models Per Wound</td> <td width="64" style="width: 48pt;">Toxin Sacs</td> <td width="64" style="width: 48pt;">Weapon</td> <td width="64" style="width: 48pt;">Reroll Wounds?</td> <td width="64" style="width: 48pt;">Str</td> <td width="64" style="width: 48pt;">Attacks</td> <td width="64" style="width: 48pt;">BS</td> <td width="64" class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;">Chance to Hit</td> <td width="64" style="width: 48pt;">Target Toughness</td> <td width="64" class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;">Chance to Wound</td> <td width="64" class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;">Revised Chance to Wound</td> <td width="64" class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;">Overall Chance to Wound</td> <td width="64" class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;">Target Save</td> <td width="64" class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;">Chance to Save</td> <td width="64" class="xl25" style="width: 48pt;">Unsaved Wounds</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">5</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="13.333333333333334" x:fmla="=A2/Q2">13  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2.666666666666667" x:fmla="=B2/A2">2  2/3 </td> <td> </td> <td>spine</td> <td align="right" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td>3 tl</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G2-K2)/6)">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=IF(L2=0,(1/6),IF(L2>=1,(5/6),IF(L2<0,0,L2)))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=M2+(F2*((1-M2)*M2))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="5">5      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.375" x:fmla="=H2*((J2*N2)*(1-P2))">  3/8 </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">6</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="13.5" x:fmla="=A3/Q3">13  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2.25" x:fmla="=B3/A3">2  1/4 </td> <td> </td> <td>flesh</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G3-K3)/6)">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=IF(L3=0,(1/6),IF(L3>=1,(5/6),IF(L3<0,0,L3)))">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.88888888888888884" x:fmla="=M3+(F3*((1-M3)*M3))">  8/9 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="5">5      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=H3*((J3*N3)*(1-P3))">  4/9 </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">8</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="16" x:fmla="=A4/Q4">16      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2" x:fmla="=B4/A4">2      </td> <td>y</td> <td>spine</td> <td align="right" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td>3 tl</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G4-K4)/6)">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=IF(L4=0,(1/6),IF(L4>=1,(5/6),IF(L4<0,0,L4)))">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=M4+(F4*((1-M4)*M4))">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="5">5      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=H4*((J4*N4)*(1-P4))">  1/2 </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">9</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="18.514285714285716" x:fmla="=A5/Q5">18 18/35</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2.0571428571428574" x:fmla="=B5/A5">2  2/35</td> <td>y</td> <td>flesh</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">5</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.83333333333333326" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G5-K5)/6)">  5/6 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.83333333333333326" x:fmla="=IF(L5=0,(1/6),IF(L5>=1,(5/6),IF(L5<0,0,L5)))">  5/6 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.97222222222222221" x:fmla="=M5+(F5*((1-M5)*M5))"> 35/36</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="5">5      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.4861111111111111" x:fmla="=H5*((J5*N5)*(1-P5))"> 35/72</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">7</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="18.9" x:fmla="=A6/Q6">18  9/10</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2.7" x:fmla="=B6/A6">2  7/10</td> <td> </td> <td>Devo</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G6-K6)/6)">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=IF(L6=0,(1/6),IF(L6>=1,(5/6),IF(L6<0,0,L6)))">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=M6+(F6*((1-M6)*M6))">  5/9 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="5">5      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=1/3">0.33</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.37037037037037041" x:fmla="=H6*((J6*N6)*(1-P6))"> 10/27</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">10</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="20" x:fmla="=A7/Q7">20      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2" x:fmla="=B7/A7">2      </td> <td>y</td> <td>Devo</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G7-K7)/6)">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=IF(L7=0,(1/6),IF(L7>=1,(5/6),IF(L7<0,0,L7)))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75" x:fmla="=M7+(F7*((1-M7)*M7))">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="5">5      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=1/3">0.33</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=H7*((J7*N7)*(1-P7))">  1/2 </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">7</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="25.2" x:fmla="=A8/Q8">25  1/5 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="3.6" x:fmla="=B8/A8">3  3/5 </td> <td> </td> <td>Devo</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G8-K8)/6)">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=IF(L8=0,(1/6),IF(L8>=1,(5/6),IF(L8<0,0,L8)))">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=M8+(F8*((1-M8)*M8))">  5/9 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4">4      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.27777777777777779" x:fmla="=H8*((J8*N8)*(1-P8))">  5/18</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">10</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="26.666666666666668" x:fmla="=A9/Q9">26  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2.666666666666667" x:fmla="=B9/A9">2  2/3 </td> <td>y</td> <td>Devo</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G9-K9)/6)">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=IF(L9=0,(1/6),IF(L9>=1,(5/6),IF(L9<0,0,L9)))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75" x:fmla="=M9+(F9*((1-M9)*M9))">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4">4      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.375" x:fmla="=H9*((J9*N9)*(1-P9))">  3/8 </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">5</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="26.666666666666668" x:fmla="=A10/Q10">26  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="5.3333333333333339" x:fmla="=B10/A10">5  1/3 </td> <td> </td> <td>spine</td> <td align="right" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td>3 tl</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G10-K10)/6)">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=IF(L10=0,(1/6),IF(L10>=1,(5/6),IF(L10<0,0,L10)))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=M10+(F10*((1-M10)*M10))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4">4      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.1875" x:fmla="=H10*((J10*N10)*(1-P10))">  3/16</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">6</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="27" x:fmla="=A11/Q11">27      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4.5" x:fmla="=B11/A11">4  1/2 </td> <td> </td> <td>flesh</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G11-K11)/6)">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=IF(L11=0,(1/6),IF(L11>=1,(5/6),IF(L11<0,0,L11)))">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.88888888888888884" x:fmla="=M11+(F11*((1-M11)*M11))">  8/9 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4">4      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.22222222222222221" x:fmla="=H11*((J11*N11)*(1-P11))">  2/9 </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">8</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="32" x:fmla="=A12/Q12">32      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4" x:fmla="=B12/A12">4      </td> <td>y</td> <td>spine</td> <td align="right" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td>3 tl</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G12-K12)/6)">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=IF(L12=0,(1/6),IF(L12>=1,(5/6),IF(L12<0,0,L12)))">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=M12+(F12*((1-M12)*M12))">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4">4      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.25" x:fmla="=H12*((J12*N12)*(1-P12))">  1/4 </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">9</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="37.028571428571432" x:fmla="=A13/Q13">37  1/35</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4.1142857142857148" x:fmla="=B13/A13">4  4/35</td> <td>y</td> <td>flesh</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">5</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.83333333333333326" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G13-K13)/6)">  5/6 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.83333333333333326" x:fmla="=IF(L13=0,(1/6),IF(L13>=1,(5/6),IF(L13<0,0,L13)))">  5/6 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.97222222222222221" x:fmla="=M13+(F13*((1-M13)*M13))"> 35/36</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4">4      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.24305555555555555" x:fmla="=H13*((J13*N13)*(1-P13))">  9/37</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">6</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="48.484848484848492" x:fmla="=A14/Q14">48 16/33</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="8.0808080808080813" x:fmla="=B14/A14">8  8/99</td> <td> </td> <td>flesh</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G14-K14)/6)">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=IF(L14=0,(1/6),IF(L14>=1,(5/6),IF(L14<0,0,L14)))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75" x:fmla="=M14+(F14*((1-M14)*M14))">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="3">3      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.67</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.12375" x:fmla="=H14*((J14*N14)*(1-P14))"> 12/97</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">10</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="54" x:fmla="=A15/Q15">54      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="5.4" x:fmla="=B15/A15">5  2/5 </td> <td>y</td> <td>Devo</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G15-K15)/6)">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=IF(L15=0,(1/6),IF(L15>=1,(5/6),IF(L15<0,0,L15)))">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=M15+(F15*((1-M15)*M15))">  5/9 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="3">3      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.66666666666666663">0.67</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.1851851851851852" x:fmla="=H15*((J15*N15)*(1-P15))">  5/27</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">5</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="60.606060606060616" x:fmla="=A16/Q16">60 20/33</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="12.121212121212123" x:fmla="=B16/A16">12  4/33</td> <td> </td> <td>spine</td> <td align="right" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td>3 tl</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G16-K16)/6)">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=IF(L16=0,(1/6),IF(L16>=1,(5/6),IF(L16<0,0,L16)))">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=M16+(F16*((1-M16)*M16))">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="3">3      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.67</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="8.2500000000000004E-2" x:fmla="=H16*((J16*N16)*(1-P16))">  8/97</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">9</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="61.363636363636374" x:fmla="=A17/Q17">61  4/11</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="6.8181818181818192" x:fmla="=B17/A17">6  9/11</td> <td>y</td> <td>flesh</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">5</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G17-K17)/6)">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=IF(L17=0,(1/6),IF(L17>=1,(5/6),IF(L17<0,0,L17)))">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.88888888888888884" x:fmla="=M17+(F17*((1-M17)*M17))">  8/9 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="3">3      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.67</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.14666666666666664" x:fmla="=H17*((J17*N17)*(1-P17))"> 11/75</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">8</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="64.646464646464651" x:fmla="=A18/Q18">64 64/99</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="8.0808080808080813" x:fmla="=B18/A18">8  8/99</td> <td>y</td> <td>spine</td> <td align="right" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td>3 tl</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G18-K18)/6)">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=IF(L18=0,(1/6),IF(L18>=1,(5/6),IF(L18<0,0,L18)))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=M18+(F18*((1-M18)*M18))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="3">3      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">0.67</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.12375" x:fmla="=H18*((J18*N18)*(1-P18))"> 12/97</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">7</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="68.727272727272705" x:fmla="=A19/Q19">68  8/11</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="9.8181818181818148" x:fmla="=B19/A19">9  9/11</td> <td> </td> <td>Devo</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.16666666666666669" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G19-K19)/6)">  1/6 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.16666666666666669" x:fmla="=IF(L19=0,(1/6),IF(L19>=1,(5/6),IF(L19<0,0,L19)))">  1/6 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.30555555555555558" x:fmla="=M19+(F19*((1-M19)*M19))"> 11/36</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="3">3      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.66666666666666663">0.67</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.10185185185185187" x:fmla="=H19*((J19*N19)*(1-P19))">  5/49</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">6</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="96" x:fmla="=A20/Q20">96      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="16" x:fmla="=B20/A20">16      </td> <td> </td> <td>flesh</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G20-K20)/6)">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=IF(L20=0,(1/6),IF(L20>=1,(5/6),IF(L20<0,0,L20)))">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75" x:fmla="=M20+(F20*((1-M20)*M20))">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2">2      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.83333333333333337" x:fmla="=5/6">0.83</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="6.25E-2" x:fmla="=H20*((J20*N20)*(1-P20))">  1/16</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">10</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="108" x:fmla="=A21/Q21">108      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="10.8" x:fmla="=B21/A21">10  4/5 </td> <td>y</td> <td>Devo</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G21-K21)/6)">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=IF(L21=0,(1/6),IF(L21>=1,(5/6),IF(L21<0,0,L21)))">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=M21+(F21*((1-M21)*M21))">  5/9 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2">2      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.83333333333333337" x:fmla="=5/6">0.83</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="9.2592592592592574E-2" x:fmla="=H21*((J21*N21)*(1-P21))">  5/54</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">5</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="120" x:fmla="=A22/Q22">120      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="24" x:fmla="=B22/A22">24      </td> <td> </td> <td>spine</td> <td align="right" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td>3 tl</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.75">  3/4 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G22-K22)/6)">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=IF(L22=0,(1/6),IF(L22>=1,(5/6),IF(L22<0,0,L22)))">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.33333333333333337" x:fmla="=M22+(F22*((1-M22)*M22))">  1/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2">2      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.83333333333333337" x:fmla="=5/6">0.83</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="4.1666666666666657E-2" x:fmla="=H22*((J22*N22)*(1-P22))">  1/24</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">9</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="121.5" x:fmla="=A23/Q23">121  1/2 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="13.5" x:fmla="=B23/A23">13  1/2 </td> <td>y</td> <td>flesh</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">5</td> <td align="right" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.5">  1/2 </td> <td align="right" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=(1/2)+((G23-K23)/6)">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.66666666666666663" x:fmla="=IF(L23=0,(1/6),IF(L23>=1,(5/6),IF(L23<0,0,L23)))">  2/3 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="0.88888888888888884" x:fmla="=M23+(F23*((1-M23)*M23))">  8/9 </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="2">2      </td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.83333333333333337" x:fmla="=5/6">0.83</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="7.4074074074074056E-2" x:fmla="=H23*((J23*N23)*(1-P23))">  2/27</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="right" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="">8</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="128" x:fmla="=A24/Q24">128      </td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="16" 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I'd agree with Orlanth on that, devgaunts are your best shooty gaunt overall, the extra 6" in just way to valuable. I'd also agree with 7pt versions over 10pt versions. They aren't exactly resilient, so having that many less bodies quickly works against you even with a supposedly better point to dead MEQ value.

to give an example, 10 bolter marines vs near enough same points of gaunts. the vps gained and lost in an 18" shooty match over 5 turns:

7pt gaunts, shooting first 1.9vp gained to 1 vp given up.
7pt gaunts, shooting second .48vp gained to 1 vp given up.

10pt gaunts, shooting first 1.8vp gained to 1 vp given up.
10pt gaunts, shooting second .27vp gained to 1 vp given up.

I know its a silly scenario etc,etc and in reality umpteem dozen other things would happen, but it serves a purpose in showing that despite a supposedly more efficient MEQ killing ability, they actually do worse against MEQs at gaining and losing VPs, they lose firepower to quick, and require less casualties to give up full or half vps. The 10pt gaunts actually get wiped out almost 2/3rds of the time compared to just 19% of the tme for the 7pt version. That extra staying power also means the 7pt version is more likely to bag the extra marine or so to gain half vp from the marine unit {edit: to clarify, the above figures include this aspect, its part of why the 7pt version scores more vps).

To compound what Puree is saying, it is not unlikely that marines might want to stand and shoot gaunts, as other units in the army would discourage the idea of forward deploying the marines this way.

So now we assume the marines are going to shoot the gaunts, how much better is it to have gaunts that dont need to be in double tap range!

Devgaunts > other gaunts

The point is, though, that in a Godzilla army the Gaunts are primarily there as a tarpit unit and whatever else they manage to kill during the game is an added bonus.

While you don't lose too many bodies to take Termagaunts over Spinegaunts you do start to have signifigantly fewer numbers of Gaunts when you start taking Devourers.

A proper godzilla army doesn't really need extra anti-infantry shooting, it tends to have plenty of that. What it needs is protection from being assaulted or shot. The Spinegaunt does that better than any other unit in the army.
The Termagaunt can perform roughly a similar role, but gives you the versatility to shoot at some targets if you need.

The Devgaunt does shoot well, but when the assault units start rolling in you face the very real possibility that the Devgaunts will have already been wiped out by enemy shooting or can be wiped out much more quickly than Spinegaunts in close combat as you will have fewer bodies to soak casualties.

What are you talking about, Orlanth? Devgaunts will still be in double-tap range after the Marines, you know, move.

Ooops, lost track ofthe fact that the thread was about godzilla, and got drawn into the best shooty gaunt discussion.

Well, how do you expand a godzilla list after you've filled up on TMCs? Squishies!

Tegeus: That involves the enemy wanting to get closer to a nid army. Most do not, especially any shooty squad.

Puree: The chat on gaunts was very relevant, with most of the points tied up in TMC choosing the right gaunt is important to the list.

Yakface: This is very true if you waste points on 10pt gaunts, 7pts is quite ok. as most opponents will be feverishly shooting the big bugs anyway the gaunts may well get ignored. For 140pts I would rather take 20 nasty threatening Devgaunts than 28 relatively harmless Spinegaunts. 20 devgaunts will kick out enough firepower that the opponent may have to deal with them one way or another.

Assuming we want a screening unit I would like to look at rippers. Cheapest per wound cost, and if they start attracting S6+ firepower those are shots that are normally needed for the TMC's. Scatter lasers, shuricannon and multilasers are only real exceptions, and even then firing scatter lasers at carnifexes is a reasonable use of the weapon. So the tactic should be sound except against Eldar and Mech Guard with medium strength weapons to spare, yes? Normally I would not recommend rippers, but the fact the optimal guns against them are diluted against the fexes too should count for something. Between Rippers and Devgaunts the cost per wounds for the horde troops should more or less even out with the Spinegaunts. What do you think.

Posted By Orlanth on 11/04/2007 3:53 PM

Yakface: This is very true if you waste points on 10pt gaunts, 7pts is quite ok. as most opponents will be feverishly shooting the big bugs anyway the gaunts may well get ignored. For 140pts I would rather take 20 nasty threatening Devgaunts than 28 relatively harmless Spinegaunts. 20 devgaunts will kick out enough firepower that the opponent may have to deal with them one way or another.

Assuming we want a screening unit I would like to look at rippers. Cheapest per wound cost, and if they start attracting S6+ firepower those are shots that are normally needed for the TMC's. Scatter lasers, shuricannon and multilasers are only real exceptions, and even then firing scatter lasers at carnifexes is a reasonable use of the weapon. So the tactic should be sound except against Eldar and Mech Guard with medium strength weapons to spare, yes? Normally I would not recommend rippers, but the fact the optimal guns against them are diluted against the fexes too should count for something. Between Rippers and Devgaunts the cost per wounds for the horde troops should more or less even out with the Spinegaunts. What do you think.

The problem is, enemy armies tend to contain units that are good for shooting at TMCs and units that aren't good at shooting at TMCs. The latter category will end up shooting at the screening gaunts just because they don't have anything better to shoot at. And more important than enemy shooting (because Godzillas can outshoot most any army) are enemy assaults. Assaults are the real bane of Godzilla armies and that is exactly the reason you take Spinegaunts: as a tarpit to stop enemy assaults. Devgaunts are indeed vastly inferior to Spinegaunts when it comes to tarpitting enemy units. Since this is the biggest weakness that Godzilla armies face it is the prime reason to take Spinegaunts.

One of the primary goals of army list design is to fill the weaknesses (to the best of your ability) of your army. Spinegaunts are the best choice to fill this void.

Rippers do not come close to matching Spinegaunts in this role because, again, a close combat tarpit is the role that needs to be filled. If we were talking only about soaking enemy fire from the TMCs, you'd be correct, the S6+ requirement for instant death on the Rippers would be a good match for the army. But we aren't just talking about shooting, in fact the primary need that Spinegaunts or Rippers need to fill in the army is that of close combat tarpit (as I discussed above). Unfortunately, in close combat Rippers suffer instant death from powerfist wounds (even from S6 powerfists) so their wounds-per-point cost quickly degrades to an unacceptable level.

In the end, the Spinegaunt is the best tarpit unit for Godzilla armies.

 

Orlanth:
Do you mean to imply that a competitive list would contain static "shooty squads" that are better equipped for shooting at Gaunts than TMCs? Surely you're joking! If it's worth using a squad to shoot at Gaunts, then it is worth advancing them to do so. If it shouldn't advance, then it is las/plas, DE sniper squad, etc., and should be hitting the big guys.

Tegeus: Surely you're joking! If it's worth using a squad to shoot at Gaunts, then it is worth advancing them to do so.

In a vacuum yes, but congrats, by advancing to double tap you now allow my stealers to charge next turn so they dont have to worry about double tap. And yes we are talking about stealers because we are discussing troops in a zilla list.

Yakface: "In the end, the Spinegaunt is the best tarpit unit for Godzilla armies."

I am biased against spinegaunts, they look so naff, I dont weant tyo own or build the models. At most I could use Termagants and modify the gun a little, Termagants look much better.

Do you have to give every gaunt in the brood the same weapon? In the sample games I played I used mixed (borrowed) devgaunts and termagants (because those were the models avaiable and we had only enough for one decent sized brood). Its when I noticed just how much nastier Devgaunts are, though I thought slightly so on paper, but in practice Devgaunts totally outshone Termagants in field performance.

Orlanth:
Discussing things in a vacuum is no less valid than discussing them in the context of a sort of Panglossian hyperlist that magically contains whatever units you need to make your point.

At any rate, I don't imagine that anyone would want to shoot your Gaunts in the first place if there were stealers jostling up behind them. They would either move backwards in hopes of delaying the assault, take 24" shots at the stealers, or move forward to double-tap the stealers, depending on exactly how close they are and what they're armed with. In this example, it really does not matter what kind of Gaunts they are, as they will be ignored either way.

Tegeus: "context of a sort of Panglossian hyperlist that magically contains whatever units you need to make your point"

Sorry mate. We were discussing this from the outset. The list contains 8 zilla plus needed troops to expand to fill points. The troops were stealers and gaunts, we have been discussing which gaunts. The goalposts have not shifted.

Even so lets take your orignal comment at face value and ignore all other units. By positioning your devgaunts at 12"+ away in order for the target to double tap they will have to move, possibly forfeiting heavy weapons fire or leaving cover and at the very least dancing to your tune because they are moving reactively and not necessarily where the opponent originally wanted them to be.

tegeus: "At any rate, I don't imagine that anyone would want to shoot your Gaunts in the first place if there were stealers jostling up behind them. They would either move backwards in hopes of delaying the assault, take 24" shots at the stealers, or move forward to double-tap the stealers, depending on exactly how close they are and what they're armed with. In this example, it really does not matter what kind of Gaunts they are, as they will be ignored either way."

I would agree but the thread follows the pattern that zilla stealers are hiding behind the carnies as counterassault units, that is why they wont be able to just charge them in, they will be slightly further awayu for a start. They either charge unit trying to assault the monsters, or something advancing to deal with the gaunts as a stepping stone towards the enemy lines. I agree shooting the steralers would be a priority if you got LOS to them, more so than the fexes in many cases.

Okay, fair enough on most counts. Two things:

What squad is this that wouldn't be just as happy shooting at the TMCs? Foot Tau? I'm not saying such squads don't exist, but they are pretty uncommon in the current metagame.

How would you work this scenario on the tabletop? The front of the Gaunt unit is 12" from the Marines (for instance) after the Marines move. Behind the Gaunts are fexes (remember, the point of the Gaunts is to screen the fexes from assaulters). Behind the fexes are stealers. Just how far from the Marines are those stealers now? It doesn't seem physically possible to guarantee the charge you're referring to.

I just want to point out that unless we're talking about an army larger than 1,850 points you generally don't have the spare points lying around to take both gaunts and stealers (unless you want a little of both, which in my experience is a bad idea).

For the most part you have to choose whether you want to go with stealers (let the enemy charge your Carnifexes and then wipe them out with stealer/Ravener counter-charge) or go with gaunts (use gaunts to take the enemy charge and then counter-charge with TMCs and Raveners).


If you were using a big enough army (such as in the 'ard boy tournie) that you could afford to have both Gaunts and Stealers then I think you could get away with taking Devourer gaunts as the stealers would always be lurking waiting to take on any enemy chargers who try to tear through the gaunts.