Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Greetings Dakkadakkians

Came across this site and forum a little while ago, a short while after myself and a few friends decided to pick up the 40k hobby again after being away for 4-5 years, give or take. Having been part of a community back in the day that seems to have wandered off into oblivion (think it was names Index Astartes or something similar), I decided to look around for a new one to share ideas and whatnot with. Sufficient to say, the name grabbed me at once! So, here I am, salutations, greetings and whatnot

In order to keep everybody who're starting up again at an even level, we decided to do our own version of 'Tale of X gamers' from WD. After some debate back and forth, we ended up with a setup of Puritan daemonhunters/Imperial Guard, Chaos (Tzeenczh or Slaneeshi), Tau, Eldar and myself with Space Marines. A nifty mix, which will hopefully work out fine.

I've always been a fan of Imperium, so I decided that my third army (previous being Sisters of Battle/Adeptus Arbites and Imperial Guard) would have to be Space Marines. Mulling it around for a bit more, I've come ut with a setup that I feel comfortable with. Now, all that's left to see if it might actually work. Below I've posted a draft for a 400p patrol force. Below that, I'll toss up some background information and chapter traits.

'Cronan the codicier's personal retinue' (Ignore the bad pun, it had to be done)

Codicier - 116 points
- Force weapon
- Psychic hood
- Bolt pistol
- Purity Seals
- 'Veil of time' psychic power

Librarium command squad - 75 points
- 5 Marines
- 5 Marines w/Bolt pistol and close combat weapons

Tactical Squad A - 100 points
- 6 Marines
- 5 Marines w/bolters
- 1 Marine w/plasma gun

Tactical Squad B - 100 points
- 6 Marines
- 5 Marines w/bolters
- 1 Marine w/plasma gun

Models: 18

Points: 391

----------------------------------------------------

Chapter traits (significant divergence):


Heed the wisdom of the Ancients (Wise) - Dreadnoughts as Elite and Heavy Support, elites must be venerable

Uphold the honour of the Emperor (Zealous) - 6+ invulnerable save against shooting for command and veteran squads, do not benefit from cover


Eye to eye - 0-1 selection of Land speeders, Attack Bikes and Bike squadrons
Have pride in your colours - No models may use Infiltrate or Scouts special rules

--------------------------------------------------------

As you all might see, I'm designing my own chapter. This is simply because I like the idea of having something that's 'just mine.' Here's what I've got in that regard so far

- The chapter is led by Librarians
- The chapter relies heavily on Dreadnoughts. Elder marines with vast knowledge about the great enemy are some of the most valuable assets of the chapter, hence their greater-than-normal numbers.
- In a sense, the chapter is a cross between the doctrines of the Relictors, the Blood Ravens and pre-Heresy Thousand Sons (before the Emperor slapped their wrists, that is.) With this I'm thinking of having them being obsessed with gathering knowledge, especially about the forces of Chaos. I might make them a part of the 'Adeptus Praetus', the chapters created specifically to guard the Eye of Terror
- The chapters is under surveillance by the Ordos. They still consider themselves very much loyalist and uncorrupted (as shown by their 'Uphold the honour of the Emperor' trait), though not all others agree. This leads to regular investigations by both the Malleus and Hereticus Ordos. Lately, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors of the Xanthism faction (radicals) have taken to fight alongside the Chapter on several fields of battle. There's even reports of there being daemonhosts at their side (A twist I might replicate ingame from time to time)

For models, I've decided to field the Chapter using the 'Dark Angels veterans' models. Simply because they look awesome, and give that 'monkish' feel Ithink a bunch of gun-toting librarians should have.

Now, as for the list: I'd like this to be a 'core' list I can expand on without modifications, if need be. If at all possible, it should work so well that I'll simply have to add some marines to the squads and put in additional units. An all-purpose list, you might say.
I've gone with two squads for fire-support, and a group that kicks hindquarters in close combat. That is, as long as they survive long enough to get there. So far, that's the main problem, as far as I can see.

So then, any suggestions?

Agandhjin

i like your fluff for your marines...

what are you planning your 1500 pts/1850 pts armys to look like ..

as for your libby and ret getting to close combat .... you may want to try going with a libby with and jump pack and assault marines instead... that way you will likely see second round CC

ok, in larger games I would make sure to the give the marines a lascannon. Also, I would make sure to always give your librarian a bike and Fear of the darkness. Unfortunately, it seems that dreadnaughts are not very good currently and thats sad cause their fluff rocks, but if you must take them consider making them cheap and putting them in drop pods.

I've had the SM codex for a while. I've gotten some ideas from it and have about 3 to 4 K points of Marines being painted right now.

I've started playing them, subbing in my friends BT's as generics.

He doesn't have all the things I'd use (BT's being so different), but it's helped me. I think I can give you some pointers here, though I don't claim expertise.

First off, I wouldn't start with the Librarian. He's a TOUGH COOKIE fot a 400 point force, but I like Chaplains more.
I'd have gone with a Chaplain and saved some points.

The rest of the army looks like a good start to me.

I seriously do NOT like your traits, though.

Let me explain:

Heed the wisdom of the Ancients (Wise) - Dreadnoughts as Elite and Heavy Support, elites must be venerable

This one makes me nauseous. LOL
Why are you taking dreads AT ALL? Especially so many that you need extra slots for them?
A dread is Armor 12. If a model shoots a lascannon at it & hits, it will penetrate 50% of the time... and Glance 16.5% of the time. That means that, 66% of the time that a Lascannon HITS, something very bad will happen.
Not to mention that HALF of the penetrating hits will destroy them outright.

IMO, stay as far away as Dreads as possible.
If you DO decide to use one, give it a Twin-Linked Lascannon, a Missile Launcher and hide it behind something big!

Uphold the honour of the Emperor (Zealous) - 6+ invulnerable save against shooting for command and veteran squads, do not benefit from cover

I do not understand why.
A smartly played force will spend plenty of time in cover. Even trees (at 5+) have a better cover save than this.

Taking this limits your ability to ever get cover saves (which you'll HATE, when you have to make your 6+ Invulnerable save instead of the 4+ Cover save you would have had in that ruined building).
Unless you know ahead of time that you're playing on a flat table, this is worthless, IMO... And taking it only causes you trouble. You ruin your cover saves, and you have to take an extra disadvantage.

Eye to eye - 0-1 selection of Land speeders, Attack Bikes and Bike squadrons

Isn't this in the same category as "no drop pods?" Are you planning on using Drop Pods? If not, you'd be better off eliminating Drop Pods & keeping the bikes (Attack bikes are pretty valuable).

Have pride in your colours - No models may use Infiltrate or Scouts special rules

No scouts?
A unit of scouts with sniper rifles is a MUST HAVE in every SM players collection... even if rarely ever used.
Their ability to hit & wound easily, combined with the pinning effect of their rifles, is very nice.

I don't recall what other options are in this category, but I'm sure you could find one with less bite.

Hope this helps.


Eric

So basically your post boils down to:

Don't take your list, take mine

I like the theme of the OP's list; sure it's not going to tear up the tournament scene but I don't think that was the point. Telling him to not take Librarians and Dreadnoughts when he has made a Librarian and Dreadnought list is pretty rude, IMO.

To Agandhjin:

I would add Drop Pods to the Dreads as it overcomes their main weakness (low armour and slow movement); they pack a great big wallop when they fire, and having them be Venerable will help their survivability quite a bit.

Perhaps you should add some Tank backup (Vindicators?) to help suppress the enemy while your troops and Dreads get to them; I notice your Marine squads have only a special (and reasonably short range) weapon, maybe you could consider a Dev squad with Missile Launchers and/or Lascannons?

Interesting idea! Let us know how it turns out!

Viperion

The most important thing is to drop "Uphold the honor of the mperor" That has to be the worst divergence out there. Trust me when I say that you will want to use cover to your advantage in EVERY game that you play.
Also I'd find a way to get a lascannon or at least a missile launcher in one of those tacticle squads instead of the plasma gun. You should always have some kind of effective anti-armor weapon ready to reach out and touch someone. Even at 400 pts.
Librarians with fear of the darkness are always great fun. I run a head the wisdom of the ancients army with 3 venerable dreads sometimes. The list is not the most competitive but the Ven. dread models look so cool.
Good luck with your army and let us know how you plan to expand it.

Viperion wrote:So basically your post boils down to:

Don't take your list, take mine

I like the theme of the OP's list; sure it's not going to tear up the tournament scene but I don't think that was the point. Telling him to not take Librarians and Dreadnoughts when he has made a Librarian and Dreadnought list is pretty rude, IMO.

,SNIP for brevity>

Interesting idea! Let us know how it turns out!

Viperion

So, your post boils down to the fact that you like his list but are feeling defensive about it, since someone piped in with an opinion that promotes CHANGE?
Maybe not... but that's how it reads to me.

Fact is, I did not suggest a list. I suggested a far better HQ choice for a small 400 point list, where the player needs to maximize every point spent.
The other thing I did was suggest using better traits (again, NOT a list) for this force.
For the army he has right now, his traits will do him more harm than good.

He doesn't have a Librarian and Dreadnought list.
He has a troop and HQ list. The HQ happens to be a Librarian.
Additionally, NO traits he chose have ANYTHING to do with Librarians any more than they do any OTHER unit choice.
So, calling it a Librarian and Dreadnought list is, at minimum, incorrect - based on what he has now.

I'm making suggestions based on the list he HAS NOW.

Your "tone" to me in the post is what was rude. Not nearly so rude as to assume you know what I was saying when you obviously didn't pay attention to my post any more than what it took to see that I was offering other options and not just saying, "Yay! Neato list!"


Back to the army...

I think those who suggest a Lascannon in every squad have some solid advice.
At S9, it can kill any vehicle in the game. In 400 point games, your enemies WILL fear them.

I don't have my codex handy but I'm fairly certain that the points saved by changing your HQ choice (which, of course, you could always ADD a Librarian to LATER) and dropping 1 Plas in each squad would allot you to add a Lascannon to one squad, if not 2.

augustus5 wrote:The most important thing is to drop "Uphold the honor of the mperor" That has to be the worst divergence out there. Trust me when I say that you will want to use cover to your advantage in EVERY game that you play.

Absolutely.

Eric

If you are going for the wisdom of the ancients theme and want to build a chapter that emphasizes elder veterans, consider putting that librarian in terminator armor. Not only does the new model look great, it will fit your theme when you expand by adding the dreads.
Here is some tactical food for thought:
Instead of tactical marines as your base troops choices, go with scouts. Advantages are they are cheaper, allowing you to afford the higher cost of terminator armor and dreads. They can infiltrate, giving you more "mobility" with your smallish starting force. The ability to equip them for stand-offish fights with sniper rifles/missile launcher or get stuck in with hth bolt pistol & ccw, or stay tactical with the versatile bolter/heavy bolter combo. Add some vet sergeants with teleport homers to get the librarian and termie command squad where you want them. It can be a nice theme similar to Lysanderwing or deathwing approach. Also, theme-wise, the veterans can be training the neophytes.
I agree about the 6+ save trait leaving much to be desired. Give another look to other traits. The important thing to remember is that it is your vision, so don't get caught up too much with what people suggest here. Sometimes people try to "optimize" so much, they forget that a big part of choosing marines is that you can "design" your own thematic chapter. Go with what you will enjoy playing, then if you find the desire to optimize later, tweak it. Have fun!

First of all, thanks for the input everyone. Now lets keep it civil and prevent my first post on this forum from becoming a slugfest

Before I adress any comments directly, allow me to elaborate on a few things:

- This list isn't intended to 'power-game' or what you want to call it. It's very much constructed around the fact that for me, fluff and lore goes before everything. Hence a unit's effectivity, although obviously it counts for something, comes second

- With that in mind, all the traits and some of the units are chosen on the basis of fluff rather than efficiency. Thanks to your pointers, I'll change some of these. More on that below

- The list, as Viperion states, could be considered a 'Librarian & Dreadnoughts' list. Why else would I choose a trait that allows more dreadnoughts, if I didn't want them to be a major part of my list? The fluff part of my post underlines this as well. As for not having any traits related to Librarians; I couldn't find any, except the one that disallows them :( I suppose you could use the one that gives some units additional Apothecaries to represent their vigilance against mutation and such... more on that later on.

- Note the name '.... personal retinue.' This list was intended to represent 'Cronan' (no, not his final name) and his personal possé. Hence, while the Chaplain might be a more point-efficient choice in a patrol list, that's not really an option.

Now, let me see what we've got to work with:

Traits/Drawbacks:

Heed the wisdom of the Ancients (Wise)
This one, while it doesn't really have anything to do with this list at 400 points, is a heads-up on what's to come. As I wrote in the fluff, dreadnoughts are a major part of the Chapter's source of lore, and probably some part of their ruling council as well. While I might opt to not use traits/drawbacks at all at 400ps, it will definatly be there once the army reaches 1000p

Uphold the honour of the Emperor (Zealous)
This is an example of something chosen on the basis of fluff. The Chapter, as they strive to prove their loyalty to the Emperor, makes a point of showing off their devotion. HOWEVER, this is, as some of you have stated, close to useless. Hence, I'll remove it.

Eye to eye
Why did I choose this major drawback? I don't fancy bikes, simple as that. While the loss of Land Speeders did put me a bit off, I figured I'd never field more than two of those at once. That I can still manage in one Land Speeder squadron.

@MagickalMemories: I can't see anywhere that taking this prevents me from using drop pods. That's a minor drawback called 'Die standing'

Have pride in your colours
Again, fluffiness made me choose this one. Depending on how you read the rules, this does NOT prevent the use of scouts. It just prevents them from making use of the rules 'infiltrate' and 'scouts' (which I incidently couldn't find). Then again, I guess it depends on interpretation

Change in traits
For now, I'm keeping 'Heed the wisdom of the ancients' and 'Have pride in your colours.' The other two are scratched.

Weapon choices

As some of you commented on, I've chosen to include only plasma guns. This decision comes from the fact that with my limited mobility at 400 points, I'd like the army to advance together, as opposed to having the Librarian squad running headlong towards the enemy all alone. Having heavy weapons requires the unit to stay still to use them. (in larger games I'd definetly include some heavy weapons, and perhaps a Devastator Squad as someone mentioned). The plasma gun, while risky, has high enough strength to be 'not-completly-useless' against most vehicles I can envision meeting in 400ps. Just speculating here, of course.

Expanding the list[/u]

Now this is where it gets interesting. I don't really have the exact numbers for this right now, but here are some ideas I've tossed around:

- Expand both tactical squads to full strength, include some form of heavy weapons
- Toss up a Razorback for the Librarian Squad (and perhaps terminator honours for the lot if the points allow it)
- 1 or 2 Landspeeders: the reason for this is metagaming to counter some of the lack of mobility the army seems to struggle with. They've got good mobility, decent firepower and at 50p base they're not prime targets, which makes them tactically useful, f.i in taking table quarters
- Dreadnoughts: I've pondered fielding two (yes, two) dreadnoughts at 1000 points, though this is far from sure. They'd be fitted with extra armour, smoke launchers and missile launchers + drop pods.
- Add another tactical squad
- Add another Librarian command squad (probably not viable until AT LEAST 1500ps)

If I remember these things correctly, a setup of Librarian Squad w/Razorback, 2x full tacticals, 2x dreadnoughts w/missile launchers and 2x Land speeders put me just shy of 900 points. Probably not going to go with this suggestion though, as I feel (as a previous Guard player) that there are simply too few marines I'll try and post some list suggestions once I have them sorted out. If any of you have any suggestions, feel free to toss them around.

That's it for now. Thanks for the input

Agandhjin

Edit @ dornsfist: You posted while I was writing this up, so didn't get to include your thoughts in the first draft. Termie armour is definetly something to consider, in fact I have an idea about converting the model of Captain Lysander for my Librarian. Assault Terminators will definetly be considered, though probably not in forces under 1000pts. As for the scouts... I'm not that fan of them, although your fluffy explanation as to them being 'novices' (kinda like Black Templar Neophytes) works well with my imagined theme. If they're included, it will probably be as some CC supporters with melee weapons and such, led by a veteran.

- This list isn't intended to 'power-game' or what you want to call it. It's very much constructed around the fact that for me, fluff and lore goes before everything. Hence a unit's effectivity, although obviously it counts for something, comes second

I like that. Personally, I try to balance the fluffy part of the game with making a tough army, as well... but I don't mind losing a game, so I definitely take fluff seriously. Glad to see you have a vision for the army.

- The list, as Viperion states, could be considered a 'Librarian & Dreadnoughts' list. Why else would I choose a trait that allows more dreadnoughts, if I didn't want them to be a major part of my list? The fluff part of my post underlines this as well. As for not having any traits related to Librarians; I couldn't find any, except the one that disallows them :( I suppose you could use the one that gives some units additional Apothecaries to represent their vigilance against mutation and such... more on that later on.

My thoughts were on the here and now. I wasn't making any assumptions about the future (though the Lib/Dread thing was farily obvious LOL). I was looking at what traits would best serve you now. You can always change them later.

- Note the name '.... personal retinue.' This list was intended to represent 'Cronan' (no, not his final name) and his personal possé. Hence, while the Chaplain might be a more point-efficient choice in a patrol list, that's not really an option.

Again... Fluffy. That's cool. You have a vision for the army. Go with it.

Heed the wisdom of the Ancients (Wise)
This one, while it doesn't really have anything to do with this list at 400 points, is a heads-up on what's to come. As I wrote in the fluff, dreadnoughts are a major part of the Chapter's source of lore, and probably some part of their ruling council as well. While I might opt to not use traits/drawbacks at all at 400ps, it will definatly be there once the army reaches 1000p

IMO, if you're going to use Dreads, this would be a good one to use. Dreads are walking tin cans. They get "popped" like nobody's business. IMO, the GAME version is one of the worst interpretations of fluff out there. My opinion is that you should take advantage of this to use your Dreads as Elites, and only take Venerable Dreads. At least, when your dread gets killed, you'll be able to make the guy reroll the die and, hopefully, get a more favorable roll (for you).

Eye to eye
Why did I choose this major drawback? I don't fancy bikes, simple as that. While the loss of Land Speeders did put me a bit off, I figured I'd never field more than two of those at once. That I can still manage in one Land Speeder squadron.

Maybe I'm being far too influenced by preferences in this case. While they're not the toughest piece in the game, I fancy bikes. I really like how useful they can be for Deepstriking Termies, if you give them teleport homers.

@MagickalMemories: I can't see anywhere that taking this prevents me from using drop pods. That's a minor drawback called 'Die standing'

I was suggesting the possibility of using "Die Standing" instead of "Eye to Eye." I didn't remember if they were in the same category or not. I thought they were. I have the codex in front of me now, though... and know better. LOL. Personally, I take "Aspire to Glory" because I don't use a lot of terminators... again... just a personal preference, not a suggestion.

Have pride in your colours
Again, fluffiness made me choose this one. Depending on how you read the rules, this does NOT prevent the use of scouts. It just prevents them from making use of the rules 'infiltrate' and 'scouts' (which I incidently couldn't find). Then again, I guess it depends on interpretation

I wasn't clear on my meaning. I didn't mean, literally, no scouts. I was referring to the loss of "scouts" in general (as in, the "scouts" ability). I don't know that Scouts are worth it if you purposefully eliminate the Scout ability. Again... opinion.

Change in traits
For now, I'm keeping 'Heed the wisdom of the ancients' and 'Have pride in your colours.' The other two are scratched.

Question... At this point, why take any at all? Whether you take these or not, it can't really HELP you but, if you decide later that you DO want to infiltrate or use scouts to "scout," you're screwed. Why not wait until later and be certain that these will work for you and that you will like the list you have with them?

As some of you commented on, I've chosen to include only plasma guns. This decision comes from the fact that with my limited mobility at 400 points, I'd like the army to advance together, as opposed to having the Librarian squad running headlong towards the enemy all alone. Having heavy weapons requires the unit to stay still to use them. (in larger games I'd definetly include some heavy weapons, and perhaps a Devastator Squad as someone mentioned). The plasma gun, while risky, has high enough strength to be 'not-completly-useless' against most vehicles I can envision meeting in 400ps. Just speculating here, of course.

No. You've made a good point there.
Personally, I think you'd be better off having at least 1 squad with a LasCannon to sit back and lay heavy fire down.
You're right about vehicles, but consider this... At 400 points, your opponent with Chaos could have the following list:

Daemon Prince

CSM Squad #1
4 CSM
1 Champ with Power Weapon
CSM Squad # 2
4 CSM
1 Champ with Power Weapon
Obliterators
1 Obliterator
total
-------
395 points

That Daemon Prince, with NO extra abilities, will be a BEAST on your SM's.
The Obliterator will unleash enough firepower to make you cringe (even at the 400 point level)

A Lascannon wounds the DPrince on 2's (IIRC, a Plas Gun needs 4's)
Against the obliterator, both the Plasma gun and the Lascannon wound on 2's. ONE unsaved Lascannon hit will kill the Oblit instantly. Not so for S7 plasma... it'll take 2.

if you still decide against the lascannon, I won't fault you, thats for certain... I just wanted to give you something to think about.

Now this is where it gets interesting. I don't really have the exact numbers for this right now, but here are some ideas I've tossed around:

- Expand both tactical squads to full strength, include some form of heavy weapons
- Toss up a Razorback for the Librarian Squad (and perhaps terminator honours for the lot if the points allow it)
- 1 or 2 Landspeeders: the reason for this is metagaming to counter some of the lack of mobility the army seems to struggle with. They've got good mobility, decent firepower and at 50p base they're not prime targets, which makes them tactically useful, f.i in taking table quarters
- Dreadnoughts: I've pondered fielding two (yes, two) dreadnoughts at 1000 points, though this is far from sure. They'd be fitted with extra armour, smoke launchers and missile launchers + drop pods.
- Add another tactical squad
- Add another Librarian command squad (probably not viable until AT LEAST 1500ps)

That lack of mobility you refer to is because of your Trait... I know I know... LOL
I think 2 Dreads is a bad idea at 1000 point. They just die so easily. At this level, your points are so precious.
I know you're keeping fluffy, though, so feel free to ignore my "NO DREADNOUGHT!" please. : )

Also, I wouldn't put a heavy weapon in the tactical squads if you intend on moving... for reasons you've mentioned, of course.
A Razorback is a nice addition for its transport capabilities and it's TL Lascannons.


I like that you have a good idea of where you want to go with your army. I'm envious that you can do it this way, considering that your group if forming "from scratch" and all. My group, with their thousands of models, would laugh at me if i suggested this.

Good luck with it.

Eric