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I've been working on a BA list for a while now, but I've yet to perfect it. I know it's flawed, but I just don't know how to fix it.

Hopefully with your help I should be able to "fix" it.

HQ
#Lemartes 125p

ELITE
#Death Company w. Jump Packs 165p [8 marines]
#Vet. Assault (2 P.fists & 2 melta guns) 295p [8 marines]
#Vet. Assault (2 P.fists & 2 melta guns) 295p [8 marines]

TROOP
#Assault in Rhino (1 P.fist) 165p [5 marines]
#Assault in Rhino (1 P.fist) 165p [5 marines]

FAST
#1 Attack Bikes w. Multi Melta 50p
#1 Attack Bikes w. Multi Melta 50p
#1 Attack Bikes w. Multi Melta 50p

HEAVY
#1 Baal Predator w. Heavy Bolter sponsons 125p

With 15p to spare.

Total Models: 34 marines, 1HQ, 3 A.Bikes, 1 Tank, 2 Transports
Total points // 1485p

Thank you for your time!

Attack bikes just don't cut it. Drop them and take speeders or extra Baals and give your troops melta/plas guns to help hunt armor.

Lemartes wrote:Attack bikes just don't cut it. Drop them and take speeders or extra Baals

Why Speeders and not Attack Bikes? I fail to see the obvious advantage they have over AB. What do you see that I don't?
I also considered adding another Baal, but I'd have to drop a Veteran Assault Squad and I don't want to cut my marine count too low so I'd have to add a few marines (the only question is where).

Lemartes wrote:and give your troops melta/plas guns to help hunt armor.

All the squads have either PF or rending and the VAS also have 2 melta-guns each. Only the assault marines in Rhinos could carry a melta-gun each if I make them tactical and removed their Vet. Sarges PF. Everything in the list has anti-armor potential. Could you please elaborate closer on what you meant and where you want things changed?

Mathed out, Assault Cannon are better than Multi-Meltas against all targets at 13-24". Having another three heavy bolters is just the icing on the cake.

A lone Predator could be eating a lot of anti-tank fire in a short period of time - basic MEQ list philosophy for a while was either infantry and more infantry or light armour and more light armour.

wight_widow wrote:Mathed out, Assault Cannon are better than Multi-Meltas against all targets at 13-24". Having another three heavy bolters is just the icing on the cake.

I assume you're talking about Speeders? But that's 150 points extra even if I removed the Attack Bikes. I'd have to remove a Veteran Assault squad and wind up with and even lower troop count and with 165 points to spare. Hm, why would I need such heavy anti-personnel fire at the cost of bodies? it would also shift the focus on a more shooty army.

wight_widow wrote:A lone Predator could be eating a lot of anti-tank fire in a short period of time - basic MEQ list philosophy for a while was either infantry and more infantry or light armour and more light armour.

I know, I plan on using cover and Rhinos to cover it and going hard and fast on a flank. I just don't know what to do with the points I get from the Baal, it's the best option for the points i.m.o.

The Baal is possibly the best tank for the points. The attack bike is certainly better than a landspeeder. People have not yet realized the true potential of a tactical squad in lieu of 6 man las/plaz.

- G

Green Blow Fly wrote:People have not yet realized the true potential of a tactical squad in lieu of 6 man las/plaz.

Utter nonsense. A 10 man las/plas BA/DA tactical squad costs more than a 6 man las/plas squad but provides identical functionality. It is inarguably inferior.

Mathed out, Assault Cannon are better than Multi-Meltas against all targets at 13-24". Having another three heavy bolters is just the icing on the cake.

The new cofig on BA are like DA in that you can have the assualt cannon and Multi-melta for the same cost as HB/assault config. IMO speeders are more survivable with the skimmer rules. One las shot to a bike and its gone a speeder has the potential to survive.

The attack bike is certainly better than a landspeeder. People have not yet realized the true potential of a tactical squad in lieu of 6 man

LOL, give me 6 man las/plas any day. Point for point extremely efficient. Some one needs to repost the numbers for Las/plas for our newest members of Dakka.

I'd recommending trying to fit in a Librarian for a counter to Slaanesh Lashes.

It doesn't look like you added Extra Armour to your Baal, in my experience, it's worth the points.

Lemartes wrote:The new cofig on BA are like DA in that you can have the assualt cannon and Multi-melta for the same cost as HB/assault config. IMO speeders are more survivable with the skimmer rules. One las shot to a bike and its gone a speeder has the potential to survive.

That's 100p, sure its firepower is impressive, but it's very fragile. Also you don't want to get a glancing hit on it, 1-3 wastes 1 or 2 turns while 4 removes the asscannon (depends, but this is most probable) and 5-6 destroys it. A glancing hit is enough to ruin your day.
But if you decide to field Speeders, you should at least field 2-3 and 200-300p is a hefty tag for something so fragile. Now there are more reasons why I'm skeptical to LS, but I can also see their usefulness.

Attack bikes are cheaper but fill out a different role. They are smaller and easier to hide, along with their turbo-boost they can quickly get up close to some armor (preferably out of sight, behind cover) and then punch em the next turn (for example)... I could go on and more indepth, but meh, too lazy

Basically they both have their strengths and weaknesses. But for anti-tank I'd take Attack Bikes, while if I wanted anti-personnel I'd take Speeders.

Now if I look at my list, I can't really see Speeders fitting in due to their hefty cost, cutting down on the already low troop count. In a somewhat different army list I'm sure they'd work great though.

kahn265 wrote:I'd recommending trying to fit in a Librarian for a counter to Slaanesh Lashes.

It doesn't look like you added Extra Armour to your Baal, in my experience, it's worth the points.

I dunno, a Librarian for one army, one unit... my tactic is already to screen/hide my troops and the Librarian offers a below 50% chance of countering it. I just don't think it's worth it if you ask me, but maybe you face more Chaos Lash players than me?

Extra armor on the Baal seems like a good choice for those extra 15 points.

*shrug* If you don't want to cut any troops, I'd say substitute two tornadoes for the attack bikes. Just play with them carefully and they'll do anti-tank about as well and anti-infantry much better.

Can't comment on the rest of the list as I'm not familiar with the Blood Angels rules.

wight_widow wrote:*shrug* If you don't want to cut any troops, I'd say substitute two tornadoes for the attack bikes. Just play with them carefully and they'll do anti-tank about as well and anti-infantry much better.

It's not that I want to cut any troops, I just prefer CC over shooting (I guess it's because it's more risky and difficult), hence my reluctance to swap them for heavy firepower.

Tornados'? You mean asscanon and heavy bolter/melta or just heavy bolter/melta? BA have one Speeder and can upgrade it with whatever they like.

It's not that I want to cut any troops, I just prefer CC over shooting (I guess it's because it's more risky and difficult), hence my reluctance to swap them for heavy firepower.

Problem is you will not stand a chance against skimmer heavy armies unless you have mobility and multiple shots. Single shot multi melta's from bikes don't dish out enough shots to make a difference. Since you can only glance mobile skimmers you want as many glances as you can get. You will wish you had tornados. If you play any form of Nid MC list you will want tornados. The only time I could see needing attack bikes with Multi's would be againts heavy armored armies and that narrows it to IG. I posted a BA list that was balanced and works well at 1500-2000pts. The two builds I have seen have success are assault jump armies or Mech builds. Baals for the points are quickly becoming one of the best buys points wise BTW.

Lemartes wrote:

It's not that I want to cut any troops, I just prefer CC over shooting (I guess it's because it's more risky and difficult), hence my reluctance to swap them for heavy firepower.

Problem is you will not stand a chance against skimmer heavy armies unless you have mobility and multiple shots. Single shot multi melta's from bikes don't dish out enough shots to make a difference. Since you can only glance mobile skimmers you want as many glances as you can get. You will wish you had tornados. If you play any form of Nid MC list you will want tornados. The only time I could see needing attack bikes with Multi's would be againts heavy armored armies and that narrows it to IG. I posted a BA list that was balanced and works well at 1500-2000pts. The two builds I have seen have success are assault jump armies or Mech builds. Baals for the points are quickly becoming one of the best buys points wise BTW.

I see what you're getting at, but I've never really had much experience with Speeders, so I don't know how they'll work. I'm actually leaning more towards adding 1-2 Baals and something else.

Buoyancy wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:People have not yet realized the true potential of a tactical squad in lieu of 6 man las/plas.

Utter nonsense. A 10 man las/plas BA/DA tactical squad costs more than a 6 man las/plas squad but provides identical functionality. It is inarguably inferior.

Now did I say that the 10 man tactical squad should be armed with a las/plas loadout? No I did not. Now at this point I will point out that it behooves smart Marine players to stop running 6 man tactical squads with las/plas because we all know that this will go the way of the doodoo bird when the next edition of the Space Marine codex is released... you see I think it is better to start learning how to play without them now so you can develop some basic tactics that do not depend upon them. Of course you can still use crisis management and keep playing 6 man squads then throw your hands up in the air and say GW sucks when the new codex is finally released. Finally on this note I will also say that I think a good argument can be made that a 10 man tactical squad with las/plas/power fist and a rhino is better than a 6 man las/plas tactical squad.

The way I currently run my mechanized BA army is 10 man plas/power fist squads in rhinos and so far it has worked for me and is a lot more fun than sitting back on my table edge and shooting all game. The rhino helps you to be able to take advantage of the frag grendades and bolt pistols that both BA and DA Space Marines now come with standard.

- G

To me the attack bike is a better choice than a landspeeder. Here is why I think so:

- Better soft scores in tournaments; non-MEQ players hate assault cannons, so by fielding an attack bike over the landspeeder your opponents will enjoy playing games with you more.
- Attack bike is cheaper and BA can field them as one per FA slot now. An attack bike with a multi-melta for only 50 points is a great deal. If you run two in separate units then you don't have to worry about All On Your Own tests and they can target two separate enemy units.
- Landspeeders stick out like a sore thumb and are typically one shot wonders. I have found that attack bikes have more staying power since opponents do not always target them immediately. Landspeeders however are typically shot down as they soon as the enemy can draw LOS to them.
- Attack bikes are just fast since they can turbo-boost so they are just as good as taking/denying objectives.
- Attack bikes can assault. Might not sound like much but it has won games for me, tying up large hordes that need a 6 to wound them which gives the rest of my army time to redeploy.

- G

Better soft scores in tournaments; non-MEQ players hate assault cannons, so by fielding an attack bike over the landspeeder your opponents will enjoy playing games with you more.

I would definatley give you better soft scores also because I am thinking to myself that I am glad he didn't have assualt speeders to deal with.

- Attack bike is cheaper and BA can field them as one per FA slot now. An attack bike with a multi-melta for only 50 points is a great deal. If you run two in separate units then you don't have to worry about All On Your Own tests and they can target two separate enemy units.

With speeders you also ignore Ld test for priorty, ignore terrain, and can shrug off las cannon shots. a speeder with both a multi-melta and Assault cannon is not to shabby of a deal either.

- Landspeeders stick out like a sore thumb and are typically one shot wonders. I have found that attack bikes have more staying power since opponents do not always target them immediately. Landspeeders however are typically shot down as they soon as the enemy can draw LOS to them.

Usually thier multiple shot wonders actually. They are shot down immiediatly because they are a huge threat. Who cares about that lone attack bike who needs to get within 12' to be truly effective and one shot means you will miss when you need that one shot then die.

- Attack bikes are just fast since they can turbo-boost so they are just as good as taking/denying objectives.

Speed is a wash except speeders do ignore terrain. Bikes are to easy to assault and get off an objective. Ever assaulted skimmers needing sixes just to hit.

- Attack bikes can assault. Might not sound like much but it has won games for me, tying up large hordes that need a 6 to wound them which gives the rest of my army time to redeploy.

Bikes are easy to tie up. speeders just move off and continue to fire all thier weapons. I guess it all comes down to personal preferences but I thought I would throw some bullets back as to why I prefer them. I also use the mind set of tournament worthy and if your talking friendly get yourself beat please disregard.

"can shrug off las cannon shots"

Somewhat of a longshot there.

- G

Well, it usually has a better chance of doing so than an Attack Bike does, that's for sure.

can shrug off las cannon shots"

Somewhat of a longshot there.

It's actually a 66.6% chance if you run the numbers on the glance chart. I'll take what I can get. Attack bike doesn't even get that. Las cannon hits and unless you turbo boost you just die.

Lemartes wrote:Attack bike doesn't even get that. Las cannon hits and unless you turbo boost you just die.

Remember that you can get cover if line of sight is draw through it. So even if you (for the sake of argument) shot and missed the tank, if there is a barricade/rubble/whatever you can still get a decent enough cover save.

Bikes don't get cover saves.

True, but firstly, terrain isn't always so favourable; secondly, if it's area terrain, you risked a Dangerous Terrain test to get the save; thirdly, you will hardly ever get a cover save that way which equals the Land Speeder's chance of surviving.

The flipside of it is that the bike has a chance of escaping totally unaffected, whereas the LS will at best be shaken, but it is difficult to argue that the LS doesn't have the advantage in terms of pure survivability versus heavy AT.

-

Edit:

Lemartes: Are you sure they don't? I wasn't aware of this. Got a page ref?

Pg. 53 (BGB) states that bikes are treated as infantry unless otherwise specified. Nothing there about not getting cover saves. If you believe it to be ambiguous, Pg. 54 states that even jetbikes may get cover saves if they opt to take a Dangerous Terrain Test in order to enter the terrain.

tegeus-Cromis-My point was more that throwing out 66.6% chance didn't reflect the bike's opportunity to totally disregard the same shot.

Lemartes wrote:
It's actually a 66.6% chance if you run the numbers on the glance chart. I'll take what I can get. Attack bike doesn't even get that. Las cannon hits and unless you turbo boost you just die.

You don't even want to get a glancing hit since either you lose a turn (and on a 3 make it very vulnerable), lose the asscannon or it's destroyed.

I'd say that the only thing Speeders can shrug off is normal infantry fire. People always brush off glancing hits as nothing, but for skimmers with few weapons that's enough.
They should go in groups (with more speeders or something else) and do focused attacks on flanks or key points. They're like paper, fragile but can dish out some deep papercuts.
It's reckless to think that it can take lascannon shots or the like.

Speeders also are bigger targets and are harder to hide compared to Attack Bikes and Speeders tend to draw fire to them while Attack Bikes tend to get underestimated. And Lascannons and its equivalents aren't exactly abundant in most lists and people tend to avoid wasting them on 50p Attack Bikes.
Again, both have their pros and cons. It's also difficult to compare them since they don't fill out the exact same roles.

The thread is getting a bit too off topic here, but you could always open up a new thread if you want to discuss more

It's in the BGB put I am at work right now. It specifically says it somewhere in that hollowed tomb of ambiguity.

Bikes didn't get a cover save in 3rd edition, bud.

They do now.

Ok, I've updated my list a bit, tell me how it looks.

Removed:
¤ 1 VAS.
¤ The two regular AS.

Added:
¤ Two Tacticals in Rhinos with one flamer each.
¤ 1 Baal
¤ 1 Attack Bike

The List:

HQ
#Lemartes 125p

ELITE
#Death Company w. Jump Packs 160p [8 marines]
#Vet. Assault (2 P.fists, 1 melta gun & 1 flamer) 290p [8 marines]

TROOP
#Tactical in Rhino (1 flamer) 235p [10 marines]
#Tactical in Rhino (1 flamer) 235p [10 marines]

FAST
#1 Attack Bikes w. Multi Melta 50p
#1 Attack Bikes w. Multi Melta 50p
#2 Attack Bikes w. Multi Melta 100p

HEAVY
#1 Baal Predator w. Heavy Bolter sponsons 125p
#1 Baal Predator w. Heavy Bolter sponsons 125p

5p to spare

Total Models: 36 marines, 1HQ, 4 A.Bikes, 2 Tanks, 2 Transports
Total points // 1500p

Thanks!

Why you paid for vets when you aren't really doing anything with their weapon flex is beyond me.

Attack bikes are absolutely horrible.

This army is going to get stomped...

Stelek wrote:Why you paid for vets when you aren't really doing anything with their weapon flex is beyond me.

I assume you mean the 6 marine unit?
I reduced their unit size and upgrades to be able to fit in a Baal and rearrange the list a bit. But well for -35p I'd get one less marine (and the uncomfortable number of 5 marines) and 1 less attack for each marine. Can't really say if it's worth it or not, but it doesn't look that bad imo.

But what would you have put those 200p in? Well on second thought I could boost both Tacticals and get another Attack Bike. (I've edited this in the second list)

Stelek wrote:Attack bikes are absolutely horrible.

May I ask, why?

Stelek wrote:This army is going to get stomped...

Oh? Well I've played with a similar list in 3 games and I've won solid to major victories on every one so i doubt it's *that* bad.

But why is it so bad then? Pretty pointless to just come with a "It sucks" (or the like) comment and then give no reason as to *why* it sucks, since that doesn't help me at all.