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To those that have used lesser demons in game, would it be better to run 2 squads of 6 or 1 squad of 12?

My chaos army is largely static, though it hungers to move up and get to grips with the enemy. With that in mind - and the fact that objectives could be a very real possibility come tomorrow's RTT - I was thinking the 12 squad would be the thing to do, to keep scoring strength up and be able to take some firepower. 12 T4 5+ inv wounds seem ok to me, in the face of the low AP guns I expect to face, and might make a nice escort for my chaos lord.

On the otherhand, 2x 6 demons would give smaller speed bump, fire puller, counter charge units with greater flexibility than going with the big squad. General versatility makes me wonder if this is a better plan, though weight of numbers & attaks makes me like the big squad more.

Thanks for the insight, hoping I can make my girls pay despite loss of rending / scatter.

- Salvage

I don't see a reason to ever field a squad larger than 6. Morale is a non-issue sicne they're Fearless. As far as scoring goes, say your opponent kills 4 daemons. If you had the squad of 12, how many scoring units would you have now? One. If you had two squads of 6, how many scoring untis would you have now? One.

Smaller squads always. You want weight of numbers? Send both squads in, then!

You make good points but I'm still having trouble deciding on which way to go. I guess I've got til 4:15 to decide and print out my RTT lists

Another thing about the big squad is that 12 demons make a bigger "flower" on the deepstrike, netting them about 1 more base's diameter towards the enemy, possibly pulling off a charge.

6" (from ikon) + 2" (2 bases worth of flower) + 6" charge = 14"

Fairly short, but that's still something. Yes, just 1" more than the 6-man, but could mean a (non-rending) world of hurt with 36 attaks behind it.

- Salvage

I can't give exact info, as I accidentally pulled my OLD Codex; CSm off of the shelf this morning (sigh),
I think you might be mixing in the old rules, though, Salvage.
I only recall the CSM codex saying that the Daemons have to be within 6" of the standard. I don't believe it said anything about "flowering" like with deepstrike.

You might want to look at that.

All that being said, I prefer one unit of 0 Daemons.

I know that isn't what you were asking... but I feel compelled.

Daemons are so cr@ppy now that they just don't tend to last in shooting.
If you have 12 Daemons... in one unit OR two... and they're all out by turn 3, they'll likely be non-scoring by turn 5, at the latest. That's how it would go in my group, anyway.

You'd be better off, IMO, taking a troop selection that is tougher... or even a Greater Daemon (assuming you don't mind giving up the Champ for it).

What does 12 Daemons cost? Like 156 points? MAN, I wish I had my codex.


If I HAD to be settled into choosing one of YOUR options, though, I'd take the larger unit. They're stronger in HtT than 2 separate units would be, unless you had BOTH units in the SAME HtH combat.... but I'm basing it on using 1 unit together or 2 units acting separately.
Twelve Daemons will withstand far more abuse than 6 in HtH (obviously) and, since you seem concerned with how close you are to your enemy, it seems that you are more interested in combat with them -with minor objective grabbing- than the opposite.


There are my 2 Imperial Credits.


Eric

They're stronger in HtT than 2 separate units would be, unless you had BOTH units in the SAME HtH combat.... but I'm basing it on using 1 unit together or 2 units acting separately.

Don't know why you'd assume that. If you need 12 daemons there, use both units. What's the problem? Having them in the same combat isn't some strange coincidence, it's something you can choose to do if it's best.

That said, you might not get them on the same turn. Still, that's balanced by the times when it's better to have 6 daemons show up than no daemons.

Twelve Daemons will withstand far more abuse than 6 in HtH (obviously) and, since you seem concerned with how close you are to your enemy, it seems that you are more interested in combat with them -with minor objective grabbing- than the opposite.

There are a couple of other perks to two small units instead of one big one. You get a higher chance to destroy an enemy with Sweeping Advance and you're less vulnerable to things that target a single squad (Lash, Doom, high volume shooting, a badass CC character/MC).

MagickalMemories wrote:All that being said, I prefer one unit of 0 Daemons.

Yeah, I expected that would be the majority opinion ... But as it stands I can bring the defiler I usually use (but didn't manage to finish painting, he's about 1/3 done) or the 12 demonettes I used to use (who are all painted, quite nicely IMO). I'm tiping toward 100% painted, and I am thinking the girls will be more useful than the defiler in general. Partially because the defiler dies by turn 2, often after doing very little (though sure, there are games where he breaks infantry squads off the board with each shot), and so the extra bodies of the demons are attractive in themselves.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:There are a couple of other perks to two small units instead of one big one. You get a higher chance to destroy an enemy with Sweeping Advance and you're less vulnerable to things that target a single squad (Lash, Doom, high volume shooting, a badass CC character/MC).

All good points again, and you've swung me from leaning towards all 1x 12 to leaning towards 2x 6. It'll come down to if I really think it viable to summon the 12 squad and use them as a big escort for my lord - frankly, they'd HAVE to hit turn 2 for that to work and leave time to chew through stuff, but then the earlier they hit the more turns they get shot. Thinking 6 is better for counter-assault / objective grab / fire suck purposes.

- Salvage

tegeus-Cromis wrote:

They're stronger in HtT than 2 separate units would be, unless you had BOTH units in the SAME HtH combat.... but I'm basing it on using 1 unit together or 2 units acting separately.

Don't know why you'd assume that. If you need 12 daemons there, use both units. What's the problem? Having them in the same combat isn't some strange coincidence, it's something you can choose to do if it's best.

That said, you might not get them on the same turn. Still, that's balanced by the times when it's better to have 6 daemons show up than no daemons.

Well, you brought up the first point... You'd have to get them both the same turn.
Secondly, you're assuming that Boss would keep them together. It might not always work out that way/

Plus, if you have 2x6 squads, you won't necessarily get to choose to keep them together.
First off, one unit could be charged but not the other.
At best, he'll get to charge with the 2nd unit on his following turn. At worst, he'll be massacred and the enemy unit will sweep into the 2nd unit if Daemons, robbing them of the charge and setting them up to die miserably.
Second, if they're deployed too far apart, the "tides of battle" can drive a wedge between them.

More power to you, if you like the splitting option. I definitely won't disrespect it, as I can see your point... I just don't like it, personally.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:

Twelve Daemons will withstand far more abuse than 6 in HtH (obviously) and, since you seem concerned with how close you are to your enemy, it seems that you are more interested in combat with them -with minor objective grabbing- than the opposite.

There are a couple of other perks to two small units instead of one big one. You get a higher chance to destroy an enemy with Sweeping Advance and you're less vulnerable to things that target a single squad (Lash, Doom, high volume shooting, a badass CC character/MC).

Okay. It's gotten past me. How do you get the greater chance for sweeping advance? I mean, to get a SA, you have to win combat. Twelve will do that far better than 6.

I do agree, re: vulnerability.

Boss_Salvage wrote:But as it stands I can bring the defiler I usually use (but didn't manage to finish painting, he's about 1/3 done) or the 12 demonettes I used to use

Okay.
So, 12 Daemons sounds good to me.

LOL

I hate defilers now.
They're like Dreads that are easier to target!


I can see it now...
"I know... let's make a GIGANTIC walker... Now, we'll give it a big gun that scatters to all bejesus... Oooh, we'll give it a crappy WS and make it HtH focused.. Oh, but we'll give it FLEET, so that it get's there faster. Know what'll make it uber-kewl? Lets give them the option to remove it's supporting weapons for an extra HtH attack. It'll roxxor!
What? Armor?
Nah. We don't need to increase its armor. Twelve is really good.
Plus, if the player wants a higher AV, he can just buy mutated hull.
What? We aren't putting Mutated Hull in the codex? Makes sense to me.
No big deal.
Let's just leave it like it is and watch our Defiler sales increase."

Enjoy using those Daemons. LOL


Eric