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Alright well first off this list is designed for a tournament with objective heavy games as is usually the case for our hobby shop and also keeping in mind that at least all armies will be present besides sisters of battle. Secondly, I do appreciate any advice you would have but please do not try talking me out of using the more expensive grenadiers over basic guardsmen, that said here it goes.

HQ
------
Ursakar E. Creed

Cadian Command Platoon
- Junior Officer
command squad with rocket launcher
-Support Squard
3x Lascannon
3x Rocket launchers


Troops
--------------------

3x (Grenadiers x10)
-veteran sergeant w/ power sword
1x Grey knight Allies x10 w/ 2x psycannon's
-Grey knight Justicar
1x Inquisitor
-Emperors Tarot
-Holocaust
Elite
-------------------
1x Storm troopers x10
-veteran sergeant w/ power sword

Fast Attack
--------------------
1x Cadian Pattern (autocannon) Sentinel w/ Improved Comms
1x Cadian Pattern Sentinel w/ Spotlight
1x Cadian Pattern Sentinel w/ Spotlight

Heavy
-------------------
3x Leman Russ Battle Tanks w/ hull mounted heavy bolter and sponson heavy bolter.


A quick tour through my mind is essentially usakar kreed allows you the option of to either automatically win the dice roll for table edge or re-roll for first turn. The emperors tarot card causes before deployment for both me and my opponent to roll a d6 if we roll opposite die rolls (i.e. a 1 and a 3) I get +1 to my roll for first turn. These combined make it very likely to get first turn. I took improved comms for the 1 reroll a turn for reserves and some other nice thing like reroll on bombardments etc. Well thats the basis of any strategy that I think needs to be highlighted but ill further clarify smaller things or any stats etc units have, but as of now any feedback would be appreciated.

No special weapons on the Grenadiers? Seems a real shame not to take that BS4 plasma. You could drop either a sentinel or a few GK for the points.

For the Elite Stormtrooper squad - may as well take PF rather than a power sword. The hidden fist will allow you to be dangerous to a whole lot of things.

You have an Inquisitor listed in the Troops section. Is it an Elite or HQ Inq? If HQ, where's the retinue?

If you're going to keep the Grenadiers, at least make them useful and give them some guns! I'd alos consider a Chimera or two, since you mentioned objective heavy scenarios.

even with first turn, you'll only be shooting the sentinels, russes, and a few BS3 heavies..

All of your grenadier/storm trooper squads need special weapons. They serve no other purpose than to provide BS4. You should drop the power weapons as well.

Your really don't have much of a fire base to your army. In all honesty I'd reconsider taking allies at all.

the majour issue with your list i see isnt fluff but the actual mechanic that makes guard so powerful firepower!

and sadly your list is sadly lacking apart from the tanks and flimsy sentinels and support squads.
what id recommend is some basic infantry squads (couldn't you reduce the number of storm trooper units?)
drop the Grey knights 325 points!!! and say one of the Grenadiers units 116 = 441 points total.

with this you could get a platoon of a command with two flamers and four infantry squads with the ever so popular lascanon plasma gun combo.
id think these be a great addition and give your army some much needed firepower and boots on the ground.

Ran the Cid- Unfortunately grenadier veteran sergeants do not have access to power fists those would be sergeants in squads of hardened veterans. In terms of plasma guns as bad a reason as it is I have a horrible tendency to roll either 6's or 1's with not much room in between although I may consider adding 2 to each squad and dropping the veteran sergeants, the PS, 1 searchlight, and the single rocket launcher in my HQ squad.

Don_Mondo- As just mentioned ill toy with the idea of plasma guns, and hopefully get another game in tomorrow before the tournament. The Chimera idea is awesome I just think its far too expensive, The minimum cost for one is 80 points, more realistically your looking at 88 points with weapons and smoke launchers. my objective grabbers will be tanks, Grey knights, infantry, in that order as of now. As far as the Inquisitor goes I took him as an elite, and dropped the retinue and I stick him with the knights.

rryannn- I would strongly disagree about the first turn not being valuable as the things you just listed make up for 841 points of my army and you also left out the 2 psycannons from the grey knight squad. Furthermore half of that is a mobile firing base which means those targets that were hidden behind terrain etc are no longer protected after I move, and can usually drop at least 150 points worth of points from my opponent. Furthermore I generally use that first round of shooting (since im well aware my whole army wont be in range) to pick out key targets that are big and nasty (i.e. in my game today against orcs I was able to drop two big mechs with shock attack guns, three shock attack cannons, and a weird boy on first turn which had I not had first turn could have resulted in me getting the crap blown out of me. Its not simply how much you kill, but by killing it what they can no longer kill. I don't see how you consider being able to shoot 4 rockets 3 las cannons 3 auto cannons 3 battle cannons/18 heavy bolters, and 2 psycannons on the first turn as to be not a good fire base.

gdurant- well thank you for a very well argued point, so well argued in fact that I must desist and do exactly that...

glowgos- thank you for your advice, however as previously stated I have many reasons as to why I do not like basic guardsmen over grenadiers for gaks and giggles ill throw them out there

1.) Grenadiers have ap 5 weapons which means 90% of Nids/Orcs and several other troops dont get there armor save which can make the difference between 10 dead models and 5.

2.) They have a 4+ save, not because I think its that much better dice wise because im well aware of the fact its only 16% better however with so many races toting ap 5 weapons its actually 50% better due to the fact that basic guardsmen only get to make saves every once in a blue moon where as armor 4 gets one every time unless under fire from heavy weapons.

3.) I love being able to premeasure distances and know exactly how far an enemy model is so I can readjust if necessary to see how many turns I have until im assaulted more than anything.

4.) Basic guardsmen cannot take pswords, which can be invaluable if standing toe to toe with a marine. (also as mentioned so vigorously by everyone they can take two special weapons.

5.) BS 4 means 3+ to hit which also is nicely applied to special weapons.

6.) Ive found that when I play a massed infantry guard army alls that happens is I run out of deployment zone for my army or am simply trying to squeeze in men wherever I can rather than wherever they could best be used, so in terms of placement its far easier to tactically place 40 men as opposed to 135.

Theres a handful of other reasons such as +1 leadership etc but those are my main reasons and good luck talking me out of it.

I do appreciate any advice you would have but please do not try talking me out of using the more expensive grenadiers over basic guardsmen

good luck talking me out of it

so basically you want to hear that your list is amazing..... sorry. you are in the wrong place for that. your list is incredibly far from effective, let alone competitive. In a MEQ environment, AP5 doesn't mean anything.

I do appreciate any advice you would have but please do not try talking me out of using the more expensive grenadiers over basic guardsmen

Wow remind me never to buy my 8 year old nephew a computer so they can spend too much time masturbating and not enough time understanding the English language. Well lets see; for starters, how hard is it to understand the concept of a particular unit that you like using and you wont bend on it? I did not say not to suggest for instance me taking plasma guns, which I probably will do, or a multitude of any variant someone had in mind, just simply I did not want to hear the argument that I can field 3 basic guardsmen for every 2 grenadiers. So next time time you begin to catch yourself talking, don't until you have read and comprehended the combination of phrases and words combined at the top of your screen.

Accuracy by Volume wrote:Ran the Cid- Unfortunately grenadier veteran sergeants do not have access to power fists those would be sergeants in squads of hardened veterans. In terms of plasma guns as bad a reason as it is I have a horrible tendency to roll either 6's or 1's with not much room in between although I may consider adding 2 to each squad and dropping the veteran sergeants, the PS, 1 searchlight, and the single rocket launcher in my HQ squad.

The Grenadiers don't have access, but the Elite stormtroopers can if you bring them in as allies from the Demon Hunter codex. The list already has GK - why not DH stormtroopers too?

If over heat scares you so much - then take Melta guns. Not only do they add a much needed anti-tank threat, but the 2 melta guns will kill more MEQ than all the hell guns in the unit.

well then, you should do the following:
-drop both support squads.
-min/max your grenadier squads with either plasma or melta, and drop all of the power weapons.
-Give them all chimeras
-drop the rocket launcher from the command squad, give it 4 plasma or melta, or 3 plasma and 1 medic.
-drop the stormtroopers, and take min/max vets instead with either plasma or melta.
-drop the grey knights, and get as many hellhounds as you can.
-drop the inqusitor as well
- give the sentinels lascannons
-drop creed if you can't droptroop with cadian doctrines.
the best advice would be to take guardsmen instead of grenadiers with the way you list is currently built. There are too many wasted points in ten man squads. If you change this by increasing your plasma/melta count, it will be better. repost a new list with any changes.

I can understand liking stormtroopers, I really can. The fact that you're taking them in a tourney list, however, means the case can be made that you're not trying to win. That being the case, how is it so inconcievable that someone would question your posting the list here for competitive criticism?

RanTheCid- Ive toyed with the idea of the plasma guns and definitely like the idea of two plasma guns per squad, in exchange however I did have 20 points extra floating around so I dropped the sergeants/pswords all together in an effort to increase fire power so in general I think it might be counter productive to use the PF.

rryannn-

HQ
---------------

Usakar Kreed

Junior Officer w/ plasma pistol
2x plasma guns 1x medic

Support Squads:
3x Lascannon
3x Rocket Launchers (could be autocannons for the same price, opinions?)

Troops
---------------
3x 10 Grenadiers
/w 2 plasma guns per squad

Grey Knights x8
2x psycannon

Elite
---------------
Storm Troopers x10
2x plasma guns

Inquisitor /w Emperors Tarot

Fast Attack
----------------
1x Sentinel /w Lascannon and improved Comms
1x Sentinel /w Lascannon
1x Sentinel /w Lascannon

Heavy Support
----------------
3x Leman Russ /w 3x Heavy bolters

Fannin- If you are suggesting that I am not budging on grenadiers due to the fact that I think theyre pretty and for no reason pertaining to their abilities you are far from the truth. Statistically I feel they have a far better survivability chance point for point than basic guard do, in general I feel they both about equal out in terms of performance, I just find myself running out of deployment room when im placing 200 guardsmen as opposed to 50. Ive stated many reason above as to why I prefer grenadiers and if you like PM me and ill be happy to run through the numbers crunch I ran through to come to this conclusion.

Thanks everyone thus far for your ideas I believe after a few tweaks I will have a superior army certainly than first off.

Accuracy by Volume wrote:

I do appreciate any advice you would have but please do not try talking me out of using the more expensive grenadiers over basic guardsmen

Wow remind me never to buy my 8 year old nephew a computer so they can spend too much time masturbating and not enough time understanding the English language. Well lets see; for starters, how hard is it to understand the concept of a particular unit that you like using and you wont bend on it? I did not say not to suggest for instance me taking plasma guns, which I probably will do, or a multitude of any variant someone had in mind, just simply I did not want to hear the argument that I can field 3 basic guardsmen for every 2 grenadiers. So next time time you begin to catch yourself talking, don't until you have read and comprehended the combination of phrases and words combined at the top of your screen.

Accuracy by Volume, while it’s certainly reasonable to have particular units or choices you don’t want to budge on, it is completely inappropriate to flame people because they misunderstand your reasoning, or their responses are not as helpful as you were hoping.

This is a warning.

Please review the posting rules.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

If another poster is rude or inappropriate, please hit the Alert Mods button () at the upper right, instead of yielding to the temptation to respond in kind or to escalate the disagreement (as you did above).

the army is much better than the first due to the increased weapons. sorry about my first post. just didn't understand what you were looking for. good luck in your tournament!

no worries rryannn thanks for your help with the list im quite confident that the fair amount of plasma will add to the effectiveness of the overall army. Thank ya everyone the tourny date is the 12 so everyone keep their fingers crossed for me, and ill post how it all went down etc etc and if it was more down than up ill probably revamp to a whole new system and would love to get some input.

Well to start off id like to thank everyone that convinced me to take the plasma guns, they proved to be invaluable and led to me dominating a nidzilla army. Overall I placed 1st with a 2 battle point lead between me and second with a total of 22 players. Ill post a fairly condensed version of the happenings below.

First game was reserve heavy mission against a speed freak orc. He grabbed first turn as I rolled identical to his die roll so received -1 to my roll for first turn and opted to pick table edge instead of rerolling first turn. He was fortunate enough to have his full army on first turn except 1 truk boyz unit and essentially a tank with 4 bigshootas and a cannon. I was not so blessed by lady luck and did not have a single 6 (at the beggining of deployment roll a d6 for each unit, and on a 6 they may be deployed during set up, otherwise same as basic reserves rules.) As a result I deployed my three walkers to face the oncoming orc freakishly fast force.

Turn 1
---------
For movement he mainly as expected moved his trucks and large nob bike unit as far as he could without any possibility of shooting. His shooting had little effect with a death kopta scoring nothing powerful enough to hurt my sentinels.

Due to mission specific rules on a 5+ I received reserves for each unit but even with 12 possible reserves with an additional reroll due to reserves I rolled 1 five allotting me a LR.

To make a long story short I essentially got my whole army in the following turn and was spared being in combat due to a large river that his troops had to cross after I blew up all but 1 truck in the preceeding shooting fazes and was able to throw all of my firepower into his bikes reducing them to 3 (they had a 4+ Armour 4+ Feel no Pain 4+ Cover). In the end thanks to the river and my grey nights conducting a sweeping advancing on a full unit of orks I was able to pull out a solid victory.

My next game was against a nidzilla, in which to save time was blessed by amazing rolls with my long ranged weapons and eliminated 2 carnifexes and a hive tyrant on my first turn forcing 2 units of gaunts to flee away to their synapse. The rest of the battle was just as ugle for the nids as they found no comfort in shooting at my tanks only managing to eventually immobilize one. By the end of turn 6 I had wiped out his entire force, and in return immobolized one tank and brought a stormtrooper squad down to 2 plasma and 1 trooper. I received all bonus battle points and captured all 4 table quarters.

Last was against a good friend of mine that I play almost every monday so I knew exactly what to expect he fielded:

2 Shock attack guns
2x 25 shootas with 3 big shootas and a Nob /w PK
1x Battle Wagon /w Zap Gun and big shootas
Inside the battle wagon was 10 Nobs with 4+ save 4+ Invuln and 4+ feel no pain.
15x Storm Boyz
3x Zap Cannons /w 3x Ammo Runts and a slaver guy
3x Kanz 1x Big Shoota 2x /w Rockets

I beleive I remembered everything, essentially I grabbed first turn and fired everthing I had killing both Big Mechs and bringing the storm boyz to 6, who in turn ran off the board. The following turn I destroyed the battle wagon and brought the Nobs down to 3 after all the dust cleared. I then brought the nobs down to 1 the next turn who fled and then managed to kill his zap guns and brought 1 shoota squad down to half strength ( would have gotten both but he wisely left a trail of orks back to cover keeping his 4+ cover save while still being able to shoot his big shootas and basic shots, so it took forever to accomplish it.

At the end of the battle I secured a victory with a 1085 victory point difference, which gave me first. Thank you everyone for your advice and help it payed off in the form of a $100 gift certificate to my hobby shop

sweet it's good to hear IG kicking and taken names congrats