Chaos Berzerker/Plague Marine List (Points Variable) Advice Needed.

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**Savnock**

I'm looking for advice on a Chaos list that I may be picking up soon. I've followed the thread in Tactics about Lash with Berzerkers and Plague Marines with Lash Princes with interest, as it's very close to what I'm about to purchase. I am much more experienced with killing Chaos than building lists for them, so your suggestions on:
A- Is a combined Plague Marine/Zerker list viable;
B- If so, what additional units optimize it;
C- Tactics for play;
...would be appreciated, thanks.

So, here's what I'm picking up:

2x Princes (Lash etc.)
1x Greater daemon

2x 10 Berzerkers with champs (powerfist, although I'm thinking about changing to powerweapons. Your advice there appreciated too.) Both units have Rhinos, should I want them.

2x 10 Plague Marines, 2x plasmas for both squads, champs with powerfists. Rhinos for both squads. I'll probably buy a melt for each unit to sub in as needed.

1 Demolisher.

That should be around 1350, according to the current owner. I'm not able to check that out, as some dink snagged my Chaos book recently.

I'm thinking about dropping the Vindicator and one of the Berzerker rhinos in favor of a Land Raider for one unit of Berzerkers. I may then add a couple of Obliterators to the list with any leftover points to get it to 1500. Suggestions about best choices to round out to 1750 are also appreciated, although I was thinking I couldn't got wrong with more Plague Marines. Raptors also interest me...

I'm also not so committed to the Greater Daemon, if other choices are better. i was thinking that lesser daemons used to to create "anvils" when one of my units encounters stiff CC resistance would be good, as they would hold against attrition until other units could be brought in. Is that a good idea?

Thanks for your help, fellas (and fellettes!).

**wuestenfux**

Well, I favor the combo Plague Marines and Noise Marines.
Noise Marines can be almost as effective as Berzerkers in cc, thanks to doom siren and higher initiative.
Moreover, Noise Marines are very shooty even when stranded or dropped somewhere.
If you take Rhinos, heavy support tanks are a must-have to dilute enemy fire.
Obliterators are a must have, if you take the lash, thanks to their plasma cannons.

**Savnock**

So, would 3 squads in Rhinos (2 Plague Marines and 1 Noise) alongside a Land Raider loaded with Berzerkers be more optimal, with 2x Lash Prince and a couple Obliterators to round it all out?

And what does "almost as effective in CC" mean? I'm terrible at Mathhammer, but if anyone would care to analyze 10 Noise Marines with Siren as opposed to 10 Berkerkers against MEQ and Orks, I would really appreciate that. If not, I'll just have to guess.

I'm not into the mixing or Marks aesthetically, but I think I can find a way to swallow my distaste in the name of kicking butt.

**Stelek**

Noise marines go first against virtually all marines, and all Orks. Those they don't go first against, they go simul with.

Very very few marines go before NM, and I don't believe any Orks go first.

Zerkers hit on a 3+, NM hit on a 4+...but zerkers go simul / last where the NM went first / simul.

Hope that helps.

**Terminizzle**

Well in this list, you're going to be charging with your Berserkers, not receiving the charge, so they will have the same Initiative as Noise Marines, and S5. They also have more attacks than Noise Marines, and still have the higher weapon skill. Noise Marines aren't better in CC by any stretch of the imagination, and it's not even close really.

Doom Siren is awesome against everything, but you questioned the claim that they were almost as effective in CC if I'm not mistaken.

Edit: The Greater Demon is my favorite entry in the codex, if not terribly competitive. You want him to pop up with one of the Berserker squads, so I'd leave the Powerfist off one of those Champs. 140 points is just a little too much for a GD in reserves.

And for the first person to say Berserkers will have a harder time in subsequent rounds of combat:
Berserkers vs. Marines:
4 Attacks (on the charge) x 2/3 to hit x 2/3 to wound x 1/3 to kill: 16/27 x 9 Berserkers = 5 1/3 dead Marines +
3 Attacks (5e Powerfist rules) x 2/3 to hit x 5/6 to wound= 30/18, or 1 2/3 dead Marines

so 7 Marines dead in the first round of combat.

**wuestenfux**

I'm not saying that NM are better than Berzerkers in CC.
But they are more versatile with their sonic weapons.
The doom siren is one of the best weapons in the game.
Berzerkers are good if they get the charge, but this is questionable if they are mounted in death traps.

**Stelek**

Terminizzle wrote:Well in this list, you're going to be charging with your Berserkers, not receiving the charge, so they will have the same Initiative as Noise Marines, and S5. They also have more attacks than Noise Marines, and still have the higher weapon skill. Noise Marines aren't better in CC by any stretch of the imagination, and it's not even close really.

Against a chaos army? Really? This is guaranteed?

Odd how if you put close combat troops into a army, everyone always thinks they'll get into CC and charge.

When the reality is, they're always shot off the board.

Ah well.

**Lemartes**

Assault armies have a hard time period unless thier is enough terrain to advance behind. Zerkers have a real hard time pulling off a charge as thier just to slow and thier transports are unreliable. Statistically in tournaments you are better off maximizing shooty elements of a list with one or two counter assault squads. Princes are ideal at this btw. The few assault armies I have seen/used successfully are Genestealer shock and Blood Angels. I am thinking a build of Orks might rise to the top also (Probably a version of speedfreak).

**Stelek**

I agree with ya Lemartes. 6 trukks dropping orks on your side of the board is a pita.

Gonna get worse in 5th, when bolters won't be able to just blow the trukks up.

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:

Against a chaos army? Really? This is guaranteed?

Odd how if you put close combat troops into a army, everyone always thinks they'll get into CC and charge.

When the reality is, they're always shot off the board.

Ah well.

Yes. Why does Chaos Army B have some sort of inherent advantage over this one when it comes to charging into combat? If anything, standard Chaos armies will be slower at charging into combat than this one, because Rhino rushes aren't very popular for a reason. The OP said he was concerned with strategy against Space Marines and Orks, 2 armies against which he will be charging first with his Berserkers. Please try to read the entire thread and understand the context rather than pick out bits and pieces of a post that might not make much sense when read by themselves.

Yet again, you are assuming that any army someone posts about will employ exactly the same strategy against any other army because it is convenient for your argument.

**Stelek**

Yet again my foot, thanks.

Space Marines with real assault troops like Jump Pack Assault units can't get the assault off on Khorne Berserkers?

Space marines can't shut down lash?

Orks won't laugh at your 20 zerkers coming to assault them?

Be serious.

**DarthDiggler**

Orks won't laugh when the 20 Berzerkers kill 30 Orks on the charge, nor will they laugh when the Berzerkers kill 17 of the next Orks who charge them.

Realistically Berzerkers are the best choice to take against Orks. Noise Marines could be the best choise against Marines.

**tegeus-Cromis**

How do Berzerkers get the drop on Orks? You speak as if trukks, Stormboyz and the Waaagh ability did not exist.

**Nurglitch**

So do Chaos Spawn, Raptors, and Lesser Daemons. They assault the Orks first and tie them down, then the Berzerkers mop them up.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Chaos Spawn are fast? That is news to me.

Raptors? Stormboyz and Trukk mobs are faster.

Lesser Daemons? Okay, this is the one choice which actually does have the edge, provided they have a turbo-boosting bike unit to drop them off. They do not seem to be a very popular choice, however.

**Nurglitch**

They don't have to be faster, they just have to be in the way.

Incidentally Chaos Spawn can move and assault up to 24"...

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:
Space Marines with real assault troops like Jump Pack Assault units can't get the assault off on Khorne Berserkers?

I'm going to use one of your own trite arguments here-
You're lucky if you play against players bad enough to assault your Berserkers with Assault Marines, Berserkers are better in close combat.

Stelek wrote:
Orks won't laugh at your 20 zerkers coming to assault them?

Not if the Ork player has heard of those "numbers" things.

20 Berserkers have 80 WS5 S5 attacks.

I don't have the Ork codex but that's what, 30 dead orks?

**Stelek**

Depends.

Are there 120 Orks?

How many dead marines is that?

Soon as Zerkers are better than T4 3+ save, we can talk about their survivability.

Toss in 4-6 nobs, a warboss, some deffkoptas, killa kans...and oh boy, them zerkers are in twoble.

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:Depends.

Are there 120 Orks?

How many dead marines is that?

I don't know, but how did the other 3 squads get into close combat? If you can convolute up an example, check this out next:

http://www.math.com/school/subject1/lessons/S1U4L4GL.html

Stelek wrote:
Soon as Zerkers are better than T4 3+ save, we can talk about their survivability.

Ok, but you're the first to bring it up.

Stelek wrote:
Toss in 4-6 nobs, a warboss, some deffkoptas, killa kans...and oh boy, them zerkers are in twoble.

Definitely true, that's why 2 squads of Berserkers don't comprise a 1500 point army.

**Savnock**

Sonofagun. Got talking to a pretty girl at the bar, next thing you know it's 5:05 and I've missed the eBay auction. Damnit, and there were Forge World doors on the Rhinos too.

Oh well- at least now I have good advice on the army that I want to build, and good basis for a 2PM 1NM 1 BZ 2 Lash Prince force with optional Land Raiders. At least it'll be concentrated and cheap to get painted. That's the whole reason I was asking about this force, actually- there was a decent one on Ebay, and I'm working too hard to get in any paint time these days. But 40 marines, 2 monstrous creatures and 5 vehicles shouldn't be too expensive from my local custom paint group.

Oh, and my priorities are confirmed to be in good order.

Thank you all for your excellent presentation of the differents factes of the Zerkers vs. Noise Marines issue.

**wuestenfux**

Savnock wrote:
Oh well- at least now I have good advice on the army that I want to build, and good basis for a 2PM 1NM 1 BZ 2 Lash Prince force with optional Land Raiders.

That's a good compromise. The LR is a good decision if you already want a 5th ed force.