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So this army is a bit different from the usual you see.

I chose Fuegan and Maugen Ra about 2 years ago (when the Codex was being playtested) as I knew when 5th edition came out I'd want to run a Eldar foot slogging army again.

With Harlequins. Yes, I know. I don't think much of them in Falcons. I do think much of them running behind Guardian units.

The point is, if you attempt to close combat this army you'll find some Phoenix Lords running in with Harlequins.

Yes, Init 7 + Init 7 = win.

So what's the point with the Guardians?

Kill tanks. That's about it. If they survive being shot at as they move up, great.

If not, that's ok too. They really only need to knock the tanks out, pass a few morale checks, and then the farmers can die.

The Phoenix Lords and the Harlequins can wipe most armies out once they get into combat.

The Phoenix Lords will benefit from reduced PF attacks, having 3 wounds, 2+ save, and going first against pretty much everybody. Especially tough vehicle targets can be handled by Maugen Ra and Fuegan in 5th edition--not exactly better, but they can generally take down vehicles the guardians will have trouble with.

The Guardian squads do not have conceal, or enhance. They have embolden. This makes them really annoying, since they won't just run away.

Call it the Undivided Eldar rule. Most players don't bother with it.

Sometimes, you have to *encourage* people to march towards you. Being vulnerable to CC and shooting is one way.

Since there is nothing to shoot but Guardians, you can hang back and let them knock your tanks out; or come forward and meet the harlequin/phoenix lord combo.

It's nothing short of amazing.

You can always run all Eldar missile launchers, so you can stand off at 48". Personally I wouldn't bother, having Bright Lances scares most high AV vehicles to death.

Move to the middle of the table, and encourage your opponent to come get some.

"They're only guardians..."

1750 Pts - Eldar Roster - Fu You

1 Phoenix Lord @ 205 Pts
Fearless; Fleet; Disciples; Eternal Warriors; Independent Character
1 PL Fuegan @ [205] Pts
Fleet; Feel NoPain; Tank Hunters; Crack Shot (CS); Fire Axe (FA); FIrepike; Melta Bombs

1 Phoenix Lord @ 195 Pts
Fearless; Fleet; Disciples; Eternal Warriors; Independent Character
1 PL Maugan Ra @ [195] Pts
Acute Senses; Crack Shot (CS); Fast Shot (FS); The Maugetar (M)

9 Harlequin Troupe @ 270 Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x9); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Shuriken Pistol (x8); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Shadow Seer @ [62] Pts
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Hallucinogen Grenades

9 Harlequin Troupe @ 270 Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x9); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Shuriken Pistol (x8); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Shadow Seer @ [62] Pts
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Hallucinogen Grenades

0 Guardian Squad @ 130 Pts
Fleet
10 G Defender Squad @ [100] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x10)
1 Weapon Platform @ [20] Pts
Missile Launcher (ML)
1 Warlock @ [30] Pts
Psyker; Embolden ; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

0 Guardian Squad @ 130 Pts
Fleet
10 G Defender Squad @ [100] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x10)
1 Weapon Platform @ [20] Pts
Missile Launcher (ML)
1 Warlock @ [30] Pts
Psyker; Embolden ; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

0 Guardian Squad @ 130 Pts
Fleet
10 G Defender Squad @ [100] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x10)
1 Weapon Platform @ [20] Pts
Missile Launcher (ML)
1 Warlock @ [30] Pts
Psyker; Embolden ; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

0 Guardian Squad @ 140 Pts
Fleet
10 G Defender Squad @ [110] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x10)
1 Weapon Platform @ [30] Pts
Bright Lance (BL)
1 Warlock @ [30] Pts
Psyker; Embolden ; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

0 Guardian Squad @ 140 Pts
Fleet
10 G Defender Squad @ [110] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x10)
1 Weapon Platform @ [30] Pts
Bright Lance (BL)
1 Warlock @ [30] Pts
Psyker; Embolden ; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

0 Guardian Squad @ 140 Pts
Fleet
10 G Defender Squad @ [110] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x10)
1 Weapon Platform @ [30] Pts
Bright Lance (BL)
1 Warlock @ [30] Pts
Psyker; Embolden ; Fleet; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

Total Roster Cost: 1750

Well, the army lacks mobility.
Tanks seem to be pillboxes. Thus a footslogging list could be the answer.
I'd replace Fuegan by Yriel for counter strike.
The rest looks good.

A fleeting army lacks mobility? Interesting point of view.

Why replace Fuegan with Yriel? Yriel gives up his KP's to S6+ weapons. They bounce pretty well off of Fuegan, and Fuegan isn't bad in CC.

You do realize both Maugen Ra and Fuegan are going to be deadly against tanks in 5th, right? That's why they're in this list.

Stelek specified footslogging, so lack of mobility is a given. On a side note though, Stelek, with low-toughness troops, your mobility should be _superior_ to that of your enemy. With the Run rule, Fleet units are only barely so. Especially backing up a mostly-static shooty list. But he's chosen all-foot, so we shouldn't be criticizing lack of mobility, wuestenfux.

As for Fuegan vs. Yriel, S6+ weapons are often AP2 or power/MC in CC. Yriel has an invul. save, Fuegan doesn't- so Yriel "gives up" as few or less KPs to those weapons than Fuegan. And Yriel is quite deadly to tanks too, but at 6" less range.

However, given the shooty nature of the list, that extra 6" range is important. Fuegan is the better choice here for sure. Crack shot is a nice bonus in 5th, too. If an IG opponent decides to just hunker down and outshoot you with battlecannons and heavy bolters (and gets first turn), your list might wither quickly. Crack shot vs. tanks will make your opponents a little less likely to do that.

I still think the Avatar would be better than either Yriel or Fuegan here. You could then use the Embolden points to Enhance the Guardians. Double whammy, much nastier. And since ICs aren't protected anymore, having an MC drawing all the enemy anti-tank fire is fine. Better the Avatar take those shots than Maugan Ra or Fuegan, who will be the targets of antitank weapons if there's nothing better to shoot at. But we all know how you feel about the Avatar, so whatever.

Other than those nitpicky points, looks good. I look forward to hearing how this list does. I often look at your builds and have an immediate reaction against them, as they seem to lack durability against lots of rapid fire or hvy. bolter spam. Then I notice some subtle stuff and consider the math, and usually end up respecting them (even if I wouldn't play that way). I still think this list is not the most powerful possibility for footslogging firepower in 5th, but given your usual preferences about unit choice, it's not bad.

Fuegan only suffers against power weapons, but he's T4 2+ and so unlike Yriel with his 3+ armor save and T3 he can take a beating from marines and not die. He does have FNP, after all.

Yriel isn't anywhere near as deadly as Fuegan is vs vehicles.

Do you understand why or no? Just asking!

The Avatar defeats the purpose of the list entirely, so why even run the list if you're going to bring any targets for heavy weapons?

It seems the purpose of the list is being lost--why would you want to run enhance when you have 2 full units of harlequins? They can wreck most armies by themselves.

The IC's are protected in this list.

Do you understand why or no? Again, just asking!

2 things... I'm not sure why the ICs are protected... they either have to join a unit, or are an eligible target for shooting. If they join a harlequin unit wouldn't the unit lose veil of tears? Can they even legally join a harlequin unit?

the other thing. Why not find the points for a couple shrieker cannons. Fire through the guardians, maybe cause a couple pinning tests. If you are going to be a midrange shooty army with huge harlie units with veils, why not spring for a couple jesters?

I don't think they'll lose veil in 5th as I understand it now.

Shrieker cannons can be inserted, you can find the points for them. I don't think much of pinning tests in 40k, they aren't scary.

Just curious, how did you know 2+ years ago that you would want a footslogging Eldar army again in 5th edition?

The entire army may fleet, but then what do you have? 60 Guardians running towards enemies that cut through them like a joke in close combat, and kill them even more efficiently in rapid fire range? It certainly does lack mobility by comparison to many realistic army lists.

I understand that many of your lists are designed with a plan of killing the enemy first and focusing on objectives second, but this army can't realistically hope to win Take and Hold missions with any regularity, and I doubt it can consistently win Recon or Total Annihilation.

2 Phoenix Lords plus 2 big Harlequin squads can certainly wipe out most any few units once they make it into close combat, but for 1750 points you're basically only getting those units plus a meat-shield delivery system, and a mediocre chance of destroying or neutralizing some enemy armor on the way.

How many turns do you plan to spend fleeting your Guardians? If you give them 2 turns to shoot (which makes a few big assumptions- 1 that all 6 heavy weapons survive that many turns and 2 that you're only moving them 6" so basically doing nothing with your army besides taking these shots)

3 BL shots/ turn = 2 hits = 1 pen on AV 12+ = takes 3 turns on average to destroy a vehicle AV 12+
3 EML = 2 hits = doesn't do enough to anything by themselves

I don't have the codex in front of me, but I can't imagine Maugan Ra is more effective than 3 Brightlances against tanks, and I'm pretty sure Fuegan isn't good until he's at fairly close range.

So, how could this list be "nothing short of amazing"?

Stelek wrote:Fuegan only suffers against power weapons, but he's T4 2+ and so unlike Yriel with his 3+ armor save and T3 he can take a beating from marines and not die. He does have FNP, after all.

But again, no inulnerable save, and FNP doesn't work vs. power weapons. There will likely be a powerweapon in every squad. The invulnerable save is worth more than FNP.

Yriel isn't anywhere near as deadly as Fuegan is vs vehicles.

Do you understand why or no? Just asking!

I do understand. No melta, no tank hunter, no crack shot. That's all obvious. What I was saying (also rather obviously) is that those things are just icing. Yriel's BS5 S9 singing spear hit followed by a 4-attack charge with the same weapon is quite enough to deal with the few high-AV vehicles that will be closing with you.

It seems the purpose of the list is being lost--why would you want to run enhance when you have 2 full units of harlequins? They can wreck most armies by themselves.

Not Orks without killzones, hromagaunts without killzones, marines without killzones... etc. Actually, without killzones many things will still hit back hard without killzones. Pulling casualties from non-engaged models, you'll still be putting out enough attacks from many squads to wreak havoc on the Harlies low-T low-AS heinies. This is why tons of additional attacks at high Init. (the enhanced guardians) will be a good idea.

And with nerfed rending, the harlies will need more help anyways.

The Avatar defeats the purpose of the list entirely, so why even run the list if you're going to bring any targets for heavy weapons?

The IC's are protected in this list.

No they're not- at least not and still be functional shooters. If they're with the Guardians, they're either shooting the same targets (for which Fuegan does not have the range, and Maugan Ra's S6 weapon will be less effective after rending gets nerfed), or fleeting instead of shooting. If they're on their own, they get a 4+ cover save from enemy fire at best. Then those heavy anti-tank weapon _will_ get used- to pick off your ICs. In summary, these particular PLs aren't a very good fit with the troops choices. Either they are hiding and don't use their abilities well or often enough to justify their cost, or they're out getting picked off.

My point about the Avatar follows this- the same things that will be shooting your ICs would shoot the Avatar. At least he gets an invulnerable save. Better yet, keep him behind terrain. The Fearless bubble will make this list much harder than a rerollable LD8, and he's a better countercharge unit than either of you ICs.

I see the idea of denying good targets for antitank heavy weapons. I just think it's not effective, because they can usually be retasked picking off your ICs- or else by forcing your ICs to hide with the guardians and be less effective, they have gotten some value back. Add that to just turning the heavies on Guardians, and the opponent has got a decent value out of them. Granted less than he would get shooting vehicles, though.

I think advancing foot lists with at 3 Wraithlords, Eldravatard, and some Dire Avengers are stronger than this list. Your build is a nice experiment, and a great theme, but not terribly hard-hitting or robust.

Do you understand why or no? Again, just asking!

Stelek, you either underestimate the intelligence of those discussing with you, or are pretending to not understand my points and think I simply don't get it. I understand everything you point out, and communicated that pretty well in my original post. I simply disagree. I do appreciate the smilies keeping the discussion light, and I don't think you're trying to be insulting. I do think you should assume that experienced posters here will get most of your points, even if they don't agree with them.

From looking at your list, it seems like it would struggle against a lot of armies like Chaos with a lot of Oblits, Orks with Lootas etc.

Your list really can’t out-shoot any shooting army, so you are going to be in a lot of trouble, because 6 heavy weapons at BS3 are not going to do any serious damage to most armies, and everything else besides Maugan Ra has a 12” range. Your only hope will be walking forward for several rounds to try to get into assault, and that will be a recipe for disaster.

Have you thought about adding Vibro-cannons? Or have Maugan Ra anchor some Dark Reapers? There are several ways you can up the shooting damage, like taking out Fuegan, and add a Farseer for Guide and Doom. In my experience, Guardians become much better when you add in a Farseer as a force multiplier.

I would love to face that army.

Good times.

Darrian

It is a pretty good list against vehicles, though. Definitely a paper to the parked-tank rock.

And if you're adding a Farseer, the best one is of course Eldrad. Say, if you get Eldrad, you might as well also bring the Avatar... etc., etc.

On a tangential note, I do really like the idea of multiple small Harile units with Death Jesters that Stelek floated a while ago. I'll be trying those out in my advancing foot list at 1850. Will post after the weekend.

Well, I'll think on it tonight while I sleep.

See what improvements I can come up with.

I was thinking about this list, and how I would beat it.

2 options came to mind

First one would be a 2 or 3 deep striking monolith list. Brightlances and EML's can only glance, and the Gauss point defence system would completely smash those guardian/harlequin units. Add in a whole lot of warriors/immortals or warriors/destroyers and you are in for a really bad day.

The second (and not so good) list would be a Dark Eldar warrior/wych build - almost exactly the same as yours, except with wyches in the place of harlies (and you could afford almost 30 in the place of the 20 you have) and warriors with dark lances or splinter cannons as the guardians. Add in an Archon with combat drugs and an agoniser to one of the wych squads and you have a character which can go first against the phoenix lords as well.

Then again, I think footslogging dark eldar may well be an almost viable army in the new edition, though I could be very, badly wrong.

Footslogging DE are totally viable now, and in 5th.

I've given both a whirl.

Cookie-cutter lists generally don't work as well for Eldar as they do for other races like Space Marines because the buy-in cost for the extras that make the unit effective are so high for each individual unit. In this list, for example, you've managed to pay 13 points for each and every 8 point guardian just to max units & brightlances. Most Eldar armies work around this limitation by varying the extras and the squad sizes to get more versatility at a better overall cost.

Then the lack of flexibility in a cookie-cutter Eldar army makes it more vulnerable to certain trumps. Your argument for all BLs is persuasive, but anything that can stand off at a range of 43+, for example, can't be shot by this army. Anything that can bypass the VoT, like a null rod or deepstriking flamers, can wipe out the assault wing.

[edit]Oh yeah, and don't forget that with the new hit allocation rules, a small guardian unit can lose its warlock/gunners (and a harlie unit can lose its shadowseer) before the whole unit is destroyed.

Reading these army lists and the "debates" that follow them makes me really wish there was a way to play 40k online. Don't say DoW either. I mean essentially the table top converted to the PC. I would love to play with or against a lot of these lists.

Wasn't there an app posted on here for just that a while ago?

Get a GPS system, identical armies, identical tabletop/terrain, and guaranteed dice.

Or a holoprojector would be neato.

Hmmm. I wonder if virtual whiteboard software could be used for that somehow?

Screw it- I'm off to play DOW, then.

You would only need a random number generator for D6's, and a map that you could plot where your units have moved to. The only disadvantage would be that the distances would be viewed by everyone. The complex part would be only showing how far each particular unit could see or move when you clicked on it.