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For review, a vanilla marine army.

Sadly it probably won't be legal within the year, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Seems like it'd be annoying as

Comments?

1750 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Death is for Sissies

1 Epistolary @ 363 Pts
Force Weapon; Fury of the Ancients; Psychic Hood; Terminator Command Squad; Veil of Time
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts
1 Psychic Hood @ [0] Pts
1 Terminator Armor @ [25] Pts
3 Terminator Command Squad @ [202] Pts
Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [42] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts

4 Terminator Squad @ 242 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [42] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts

4 Terminator Squad @ 242 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [42] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts

4 Terminator Squad @ 242 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [42] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 132 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Apothecary @ [57] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Bolter; Terminator Honors
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 132 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Apothecary @ [57] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Bolter; Terminator Honors
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 132 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Apothecary @ [57] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Bolter; Terminator Honors
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 132 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Apothecary @ [57] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Bolter; Terminator Honors
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 132 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Apothecary @ [57] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Bolter; Terminator Honors
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

Total Roster Cost: 1749

A very interesting concept. It will work also in the 5th ed.
But the new SM codex will not allow 2 assault cannons per Termie squad; who cares now.
Auspexes in all squads are a pain for infiltrators.

wuestenfux wrote:A very interesting concept. It will work also in the 5th ed.

Indeed it will. It just depends on how long the SM codex takes to be redone.

wuestenfux wrote:But the new SM codex will not allow 2 assault cannons per Termie squad; who cares now.

You never know, BT got 2 AC per squad.

wuestenfux wrote:Auspexes in all squads are a pain for infiltrators.

Yep.

Smurfs are my first army. So, I appreciate a list from a player of high calibre.

Space Marines are already non-competitive at the GT level, with the possible exception of ARDBOYZ in USA where they pulled out a second place. Calls to somehow change the Marine Codex to make it LESS effective really offend me. Who is winning with Vanilla Marines at the GT level in the past 2 years? Answer, same as the players who are winning with Imperial Guard-NO ONE. And before that, their victories usually involved Drop Pods-which GW doesn't even sell. So, let's Nerf the marines. Force them to use 10 man squads, just like the Dark Angels, who are 'dominating' competition play....Nerf the assault cannon to some extent, and then make it so that you can only have one per squad. The game is already XENO 40k.

OOPs, forgive the rant, I'm just tired of hearing how overpowered 3+ save Marines are, when they are NOT winning at the highest level and haven't been for some years. 'Everybody plays them,' is not an excuse-its mostly kids with their first armies IMO.

So, would this list help? It follows what I see as a standard Stelek principle, bring the most of the best. It makes a nice use of the Apothecary. You can save any friendly figure within 6inches. This won't help ordinary marines shot at by Thousand Sons (see Stelek's recent bat rep) or a variety of Tau weapons. But, it WOULD help Terminators against unlucky dice throws from many weapon systems.

The current metagame is Eldar and Tau, then Tyranids, and maybe Orks. The skimmer armies pose the biggest problem IMO, since they can theoretically outrange any marine army with instant kill weapons while only being glanced in return.

I'd be tempted to dump a terminator squad, and bring 3 landspeeders with assault cannons instead. My recollection is that deep striking landspeeders count as moving 12 inches from one of the FAQs, so would be glance only...

Also wonder about getting the tank hunters skill for the lascannons or one of the terminator squads.

And a question: Against Tau, do you castle up, knowing that they can set up beyond your lascannon range and nibble you to death, or do you deep strike the terminators getting the first shot, hopefully flank shot, and hopefully rending at least once?

Thanks for the list!

The fact that every one is saying marines are getting nerfed is just speculation. There is no indication that the new marine dex will follow in suit to the BA or DA Dex. Those 2 armies have always been diffrent from the codex marines and that if GW makes marines to static then I feel they will loose their cash cow army. If anything I think you will see something more like the Chaos Dex where you will have squads that can have multiple assault weapons, all models having a pistol CCW and Bolter. If anything I think that it will improve the versatility of the army rather than nerf its power aspects.

Back to the list. It sucks. I have seen these lists fail constantly when it comes to competitive play. Dakka Fexes and Crons will still anihilate every squad with massed fire. I have never seen the Medic style list win a game against a half decent list with a half decent player playing that list.

I don't see the SM codex being nerfed like BA or DA.

I see them losing the flexibility that traits gives, which makes for really neat combinations.

Sadly, most of them aren't game winners.

I see marines getting a major boost in power, but with GW Codex Creep and their horrible delays in new Codexes, I can see Marines being powerful for a year then going right back to sucking balls. Like what they are doing now. You've heard the marine battle cry, right?

"Mpphhhmmphh!"

Stelek wrote:

You never know, BT got 2 AC per squad.

That point right there makes DW pissed!

mikeguth wrote:So, would this list help? It follows what I see as a standard Stelek principle, bring the most of the best. It makes a nice use of the Apothecary. You can save any friendly figure within 6inches. This won't help ordinary marines shot at by Thousand Sons (see Stelek's recent bat rep) or a variety of Tau weapons.

I do believe in bringing the models with the most bang for the buck. It tends to help you win.

You don't need to save ordinary marines, but if you are in cover (in 4th) or playing 5th you'll have cover saves. Anything that isn't instant death and that you get a save against, you can save. The key is your deployment.

You need to be in a pattern like this, regular marines in cover (any cover) and the apothecary + lascannon at the forward facing part of the yellow and the termies are of course the purple. Hope that helps.

mikeguth wrote:And a question: Against Tau, do you castle up, knowing that they can set up beyond your lascannon range and nibble you to death, or do you deep strike the terminators getting the first shot, hopefully flank shot, and hopefully rending at least once?

Actually if you setup in 'refused refused flanks' mode, i.e. sit in the middle 24" of your deployment zone (except in corner-to-corner games) you can pretty much hit Tau everywhere on a 6x4 board. Just remember to kill hit tanks first, then start moving up your ENTIRE army.

mikeguth wrote:Thanks for the list!

Anytime.

Everybody that plays SM and knows what they are doing fields six man squads for power armor... you have to lose four before they give up VPs, while a five man squad only has to give up three.

* ROLLS EYES *

Stick with your xenos.

- G

Dear Negativemoney,

The list can't suck too badly, it has lots of terminators, it has lascannons, it has a coherent plan, it has a potentially useful gimmick.

It lacks 'counterattack'. But, exactly how good is an ultramarines counterattack with a bunch of jumppack marines? I don't want to try them against Thousand Sons. Also, the Smurf counterattack unit is actually slower than other armies fast units which get fleet.

It lacks tanks- Ultramarines have 13 AV tanks which have to confront railguns and fire prisms. Thus, they are dead to common tanks of two popular armies.

It has no Whirlwinds-verdict is out on whether 3 Whirlwinds accomplishes anything.

It lacks mobility-like Rhinos. Blackmoor's recent Eldar Bat Rep shows the sadness of Rhinos. It does have the potential to deep strike 4 units of terminators, which is indeed a form of mobility.

It lacks firepower-Well, if I had the time I'd be painting up another 6 Landspeeders to see if a 9 Landspeeder army was viable for marines. It gives up the plasma guns, but the firepower is layered with the Terminators in front and the Tac squads providing only long range fire support.

Tank Hunters- I think it would be something to think about.

Marine players may be numerous, but have not posted much in the way of victories over XENO races.

So, rather than being so 'NEGATIVE', show me the money, post a list that you think would be better against Tau or Eldar, I won't even ask about Dark Eldar...

Just curious, is saving 5 marines a turn (probably terminators but you might want to save the marines) from S7 or less hits not being factored into your snide comments, GBF?

Maybe if I'm a Xenos player, and I destroy marines without any effort--you should pay attention to what I'd consider a 'threat' from marines as said Xenos player?

Or do you only care about marine on marine action, as evidenced by your lists?

I don't know about anybody else, but I consider ALL enemies when I make a list, not just 'soandso vs soandso' when they're the same.

Stelek if you would just stick with the armies you play then I think you will be okay. To me it is obvious you are ignorant of the true in's and out's of playing SM armies. Probably you like to post sample lists here to amuse yourself during the day but to be honest I would hate to think that a newbie read one of your SM lists and went out and built it. I think we all have a responsibility when it comes to posting advice. Our reputation is at stake when we do so.

- G

Funny.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207391.page

Let's see:

Rhinos, Land Raider, Attack Bikes. All are utter crap and I love to see them on the board. Easy VPs.

I read that battle report. So did alot of other people.

The terrain didn't help, but you really seem to think a 3 rhino rush BA army has a snowballs chance in hell.

Who's ignorant of the true in's and out's, again?

I post lists so there's something for people to read and discuss that's meaningful. You know, the internets free, you can always post your army lists. I just don't know if they'd be very well received.

I'd say post in the tactics section, but your deployment in that battle report is ALL jacked up, so I don't think you'd be very helpful to other people in that way.

Ah what do I know anyway. I'm just a bully. Or the kid in the trash can getting bullied. I can't figure it out myself.

Edit: Oh and I do have a space marine army, so I do actually play SM. Just not often, and not alot. It's a drop pod plasmadeath medic army. Pissed alot of people off, so I quit playing it. Now it's being reborn into a SW drop pod army so I can playtest with it.

Stelek my current BA army (mechanized) was not designed to be a top tier list. It was designed to be something you might see on the battlefield if the universe of 40k truly existed... at least what I think you might see. It is a good list that has a lot of rending weapons and a strong HQ (Mephiston). I could design a more competitive list and I plan to bring one to Adepticon this year for the Invitational since that competition is geared around bringing your most nasty nasty. I don't have a problem with people bringing their most nasty nasty every time they play but I just wanted to do something a bit different with my mechanized BA list. I have found that people tend to enjoy playing against it in tournaments and it is still competitive... but it cannot dish out the massacres like my III edition BA drop pod/jump infantry list did. I can only remember losing one game in tournaments with my III edition list and that was over the course of well over 100 games. It was a cool army too IMO and I designed it to show that BA were still quite competitive as an assault army for the IV edition.

Well anyways good luck with the drop pod SW army... they can be very powerful if properly tweaked.

- G

Well I'm glad we got all that straightened out.

Only my old school Sisters (CA2k) and my all warrior Tyranid army did well against BA from back then. All shooty armies could do well, but one bad round of shooting or terrain and it was horrendous. Hmmm you did say drop pod. Guess that takes the shooty out of the equation. lol

I think in the new Codex the SW will be alot better.

Playtesting will commence soon enough. lol

I have been a SM Fanboi for 20 years. Yep. 20. I have only ever bought a 750 point Eldar army once, and hated it. Figs were nice, but the army as a whole didn't appeal to me.

Or any other Xenos army for that matter.

Why play Guard?Inferior SM's, IMO.

Thesed lists that you post Stelek are quite good IMO, in that they get your average 'Fanboi' (Ie Me!) thinking outside the box. My tactical choices are probably quite 'set' by now, as is my preferences for Unit types.

Which kind of gets me rambling, so take from this what you will, Sirs.

This is one of VERY few posts which gives us 'deployment' tactics with illustrations for the creatively challenged. I for one hope that a new gamer reads these, for a lot of reasons.
1.The strategies behind unit choices, and the counter arguments.
2.

GBF-Everybody that plays SM and knows what they are doing fields six man squads for power armor... you have to lose four before they give up VPs, while a five man squad only has to give up three.

* ROLLS EYES *

Stick with your xenos.

- G

This is not a fair statement Sir. I always play 10 man squads. I know for sure what I am doing mate.

Negativemoney-Back to the list. It sucks. I have seen these lists fail constantly when it comes to competitive play. Dakka Fexes and Crons will still anihilate every squad with massed fire. I have never seen the Medic style list win a game against a half decent list with a half decent player playing that list.

Unless there has been a sharp drop of IQ's in Australia, I do very well, against people who are IMO, good players.

The more lists the better I think, from those who seem to have a 'grasp' of the game. Then we can sort through the good and bad on our own, but with plenty to choose from.

Negativemoney-The fact that every one is saying marines are getting nerfed is just speculation. There is no indication that the new marine dex will follow in suit to the BA or DA Dex. Those 2 armies have always been diffrent from the codex marines and that if GW makes marines to static then I feel they will loose their cash cow army. If anything I think you will see something more like the Chaos Dex where you will have squads that can have multiple assault weapons, all models having a pistol CCW and Bolter. If anything I think that it will improve the versatility of the army rather than nerf its power aspects.

Agree absolutely.-speculation is running rife. Good call on the $$$ incentive

Stelek-I see marines getting a major boost in power, but with GW Codex Creep and their horrible delays in new Codexes, I can see Marines being powerful for a year then going right back to sucking balls. Like what they are doing now. You've heard the marine battle cry, right?

"Mpphhhmmphh!"

Arrgh, they don't suck!

I see marines getting a major boost in power, but with GW Codex Creep and their horrible delays in new Codexes, I can see Marines being powerful for a year then going right back to being very dangerous. Like what they are doing now. You've heard the marine battle cry, right?

"Hurrrrrr!"

Fixed your typo.

I also play 10 man squads NOW... but if you were to choose between five or six Marines for a single unit I would go with six for the reason stated above.

- G

I'm still waiting for negative money's better space marine list. I'm still waiting for anyone's space marine list that scored over 90 battle points in the last 2 years at a grand tournament.

Actually, I'd be really happy to hear about any vanilla marine army that went 5-0 or 4-0-1 at a grand tournament even if all the wins were so narrow that they did not produce a lot of battle points.

I'm also waiting for any Bat Reps of vanilla marines defeating Mech Tau...

Akira, how about posting a list of your own for vanilla marines and a bat rep? Its nice to hear that someone is in the same boat as I am, sad that the boat is very distant....

You're going to be waiting a long time, mike.

My Legion of the Damned 'space marine' army wasn't ever intended to be vanilla marines, but with the removal of my cute rules to apoc games I can't do much with 'em.

So they're going to be SW, but I don't think SW have done very well in GT's lately either. I can't remember, is it SW that now have the oldest Codex?