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When does the Leadership Test for Fear occur?

Is it immediately?

Or is it at the end of the phase (as you would for taking 25% casualties)?

plc

Immediate.

All psychic powers are resolved in all respects immediately upon making the roll.

Can you point me to the passage in the rulebook that says that?

Checking the Psychic Rules on Pg 52 there is nothing that says when they occur.

The only lead is:

"A pass means the power may be used as described in the special rules for the Psyker in his Codex".

The rules for FotD say:

"Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not Locked in an assault must take a Morale check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back".

And under Morale Pg 47 in the rulebook, Section "Taking Morale Tests"

"If a unit takes 25% or more casualties from shooting in the turn - test at the end of the Shooting phase"

Personally I would love it to be immediate but I see nothing in the rules to support that and in fact a direction that the test follows the "25% shooting casualties" rule.

Thoughts?

plc

no, it does not follow the rules for the 25% exactly. the test is the same as the 25% casualty check but the psychic power is used immediatly. psychic powers happen as soon as it is used and the LD check is passed unless the rule states otherwise.

it does say as though they had taken 25% casualties, but it is using it as a reference.

Why would it mention the 25% casualty rule at all?

As I said, I like to the test to be taken immediately but the rules quoted don't support that. Can you point me to where it is saying that the test occurs immediately as the 25% casualty test is clearly at the end of the phase. If it the 25% casualty rule has no bearing why would it be included in the description - especially when that rule has a distinct timing for tests.

I want to be wrong but all you are giving at the moment is "immediately" with no rules basis

plc

Psychic powers happen when the dice is rolled.

This is a given.

It tells you everyone has to take a morale check.

This is also a given.

If you really need more explanation than this, I'm not really inclined to do so. The rules aren't exactly well-written, but at which point did the psychic power shoot you?

Right, it never did. So why would it be subject to the shooting rules? It says 'as if' and not 'exactly like'.

A second question related to the timing.

IF you take the Ld test immediately and then you inflict 25% or more casualties, do you take a second LD in the phase?

plc

Stelek wrote:Psychic powers happen when the dice is rolled.

This is a given.

The rules quoted say that if the test is past then you follow the special rules as per the description of the power. In this case the power includes reference to a rule that has a distinct timing.

Why would the rule reference this unless it was somehow relevant?

Stelek wrote:If you really need more explanation than this, I'm not really inclined to do so. The rules aren't exactly well-written, but at which point did the psychic power shoot you?

Right, it never did. So why would it be subject to the shooting rules? It says 'as if' and not 'exactly like'.

Thanks Stelek, appreciate your answer and the fact that you are not inclined to offer further explanation. For the others on the board:

I'm not sure of the relevance of whether the psychic power shot at you or not. However for completeness, the description says "The power is used in the Shooting phase instead of using a weapon." As mentioned above the description tells you what to do and explicitly mentions an effect - the 25% casualty check. I can't see why it would mention this test unless it was relevant.

plc

Some units are semi-fearless and others are 100% fearless.

So, Black Templars would take this check.

Thousand Sons would not.

Is it making sense now?

first off, Gw is reall good about throwing useless descriptions in the rules for wargear, powers etc. (cyclonic ion blaster??) so although they use the 25% as an example, its is only and example. see how it says "as though", not "in place of the 25% casualty check"?


also the fact that it says the power happens instead of you shooting a gun should be the dead give-away. all psychic powers happen in the shooting phase as soon as you use them, unless it is stated otherwise.

eldar farseers have powers that specificly say at the beginning of the turn, the libby power that gives him D3 attacks says it happens in the assualt phase.

if they didnt specify that its just like a 25% casualty check, people would be inferring that fearless models have to test for fear, because of how ambiguous the rule would be, when they dont have to.

funny how somethings that are put in for clarity actually make it worse sometimes

Thanks for the replies. I understand your rationale more clearly now.

As to the second question regarding the need for the unit to test if it ACTUALLY takes 25% casualties in a turn where you have tested for FotD, I suspect that your answers are "yes" as the first test wasn't an actual casualty test.

Correct?

plc

Yes.

If you are subject to Fear and pass, and then get shot up and take 25% casualties, you'd still need to take the real test--at the end of the phase, as normal.