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It seems to me, with all the cover saves everyone will be getting, that shooting lots of small arms fire into a unit of MEQs (or anyone, really, with the exception of high toughness models) is going to get you more kills than shooting a few AP1-3 shots. Just as long as he rolls a bunch of dice, he's bound to lose models, regardless of said shots AP. Am I correct in this assumption?

More or less. It really will put a dent in the number of single shot low AP weapons that people bring. Expect to see more flamers and heavy bolters in general.

Well that's not good... or is it? Maybe less concentration on high AP tank killers and more on troop chewers?

Damn it! What do I do with all these plasma rifles I just ordered? Well, I'll just console myself with the 18 flamers I just put onto my IG.

It's always been like that. My friend made it a point to bring tons of autocannons in his guard army - more effective at killing light troops, and while less effective at killing MEQs, he did get the satisfaction of laughing as they tried to get cover saves that didn't matter, instead of really going for objectives or his army hardcore.

As for effectiveness, plain and simple a weapon that can potentially cause 2 or 3 wounds is about as good as one that can cause 1 or 2 much more easily, and make them roll a lower save as well.

Thing is, with the way wounds are spread out, you might not kill the UNIT [important for kp, objectives] but you stand a higher chance of nailing special and heavy weapons and characters, which are the most important parts of those units half the time. I think that may well be worth it. Low ap weapons, though, will eliminate the chaff models faster to allow you to get at the special troopers. Just don't do too many wounds, or they'll start stacking the AP2's

Probably more of a Tactics question than YMDC...

In any case, I think time will tell how much more cover saves are going on. Certainly there are more places for them to occur, and the new rules improve the actual save over what I'm used to, but I don't think the change is SO profound as people are thinking.

The way I play Marines now (and pretty much any army for that matter), I don't just march stuff around in the open. Shooty units are in cover, assaulty units are out of LOS as long as they can be, and then trying to get into assault.

So, bottom line, I found cover for my models in 4e. 5e certainly provides more opportunity for cover, but it's not like there wasn't enough before.

Also, the places where AP2 weapons really shine are still there... Gunning down the Khorne Berserkers before they hit your line... Drop Pod behind enemy cover doing the most harm it can in one round shooting...

Plus, even with cover, what's better for your victim to have, a 2+ or 3+ save, or a 4+ or 5+?

The real change IMO is that forests are 4+ now. I don't know if I was making a mistake, but I'd always seen them played as 5+.

All that isn't to say that poor AP weapons that compensate via high S or lots of shooting aren't increasing in prominence... I just think units could find cover in 4e if they wanted it, and they'll find cover in 5e as well. As Spellbound said, people were prepared for Marines in cover in 4e as well.

Funny how all of this only made the Dakkafex stronger.

Yeah, woods being a 4+ has really been ruining my day. Why the change? I really don't see trees offering as much protection as buildings, but hey oh well.

Also, being able to see through templates is annoying as well. Previously if I saw 15 gaunts in the open and the rest behind the template, it would be clean shots that could kill 15 gaunts easily. Now, I can see them all, and half are in cover, granting the whole unit a 4+ cover save.

.....hey wait a minute, didn't they go over that.... if you're looking across the edge of a woods template, but the models haven't actually been blocked by a tree yet, they aren't in cover, right, unless they're actually IN the area of the forest? I'll need to remember that! It will save me a lot of firepower that way.

Low AP weapons meant for punching personal armour seem overpriced to me now thanx to the new cover save rules.(plasma/starcannon/disintegrator/whatever)

Rapid fire AP 4/5/6/- weapons on the other hand havent lost much of anything....and are STILL cheaper for the most part.

....plus its more fun to roll handfulls of dice anyway!

Yes volume of fire is now the key with everyone getting cover saves, and better ones from forests. The best weapons seem to be deffguns, auto cannons, devourers and scatterlasers due to their high rate of fire and pooint cost compared to las cannons and plasma cannons.

I have an opinion question for MEQ players, which is now the better tac squad heavy weapon, the ML or the HB?

Darrian13 wrote:Yes volume of fire is now the key with everyone getting cover saves, and better ones from forests. The best weapons seem to be deffguns, auto cannons, devourers and scatterlasers due to their high rate of fire and pooint cost compared to las cannons and plasma cannons.

I have an opinion question for MEQ players, which is now the better tac squad heavy weapon, the ML or the HB?

I've thought about that one a little bit, and HB's still dont do much for me in a tac squad. The price is right for the weapon, but 9 guys supporting a heavy bolter just doesnt feel right....lascannon still feels right. (missle launcher for those that prefer IT) Two more shots at 1 str higher doesnt really seem like much of a game plan for tac squads.

Heavy Bolter devs on the other hand....me likey.

I've been noticing everything getting a cover save in 5th. I run a single unit of 3 Oblits. I used to just have them sit in cover and fire away. They could take out anything in the open and since cover wasn't as good in 4th most things in cover too. But now Everything can have a cover save. It's pretty brutal, even if I use Lash and set them up in the open in a pie formation they can still have cover if they know it's going to be a brutal shooting phase (and they know, 3 plasma cannons in a row will take out a squad without cover) by going to the ground.

I'm already started to retool everything by painting up a HB Havoc squad. One Chaos Dread (Scratch build, kinda because I'm not spending money on them) is HB/CC with heavy flamer and the other is Autocannon/CC. Not sure if I should go as far as to put a heavy flamer on that one too. I'm also cutting the plasma's from my CSM squads in favor of flamers. Since they released the Sonic Weapons bitz pack I'm going to be investing in some Noise Marines as well. It may seem like I'm going over board but after playing a number of games in 5th I realize good AP is worth nothing now. Everything will have cover.

I've definitely been using obliterators' twin-linked flamers a lot now, especially since you add up all their wounds together before rolling any saves. No more "ok I hit 5 gaunts, killed all 5... next guy hits 3....next guy gets none"

All check, all roll, get like 22 wounds, squad is evaporated - even the ones out of LOS or range of the flamers!

@Typeline, Do you find chaos dreads to be effective? To me, they are such a sub par performer, I just can't justify fielding them. I have 2 beautiful Black Legion Forgeworld dreads and I have not fielded them in 5th and I only fielded them once in 4th.

@Deadshane, I love LC's too but what are the other 9 guys in the squad shooting at? If you are using the LC to kill vehicles then you are paying alot of points for 9 extra wounds on your LC.

BTW, HB devs and Havoks are money. Too bad they can't tank hunt on the Havoks anymore.

Its been moving this way for years now, GW wants people rolling buckets of dice rather then picking models off. It provides the owning player some small comfort that he is rolling his "fate" rather then him just pulling off his models in disgust.

A happy gamer is a rolling gamer.

Most of the weapons that shred through marines and termies have steadily gone up in price while the multi shot low end stuff has either dropped in price or has become a better over option (starcannon vs scatterlaser for example).

It might also have something to do with GW buffing their flagship to keep it the top selling product (aka 5th edition, new marine dex) because they screwed with the formula (dark angels etc) and lost a ton of money, but that is hearsay.

It's not as bad as you think. Plasma weapons will still be rather effective, and unless it's 'Nids or Orks (in which case, small arms fire is better), then you really won't see the table that cluttered. While cover saves may be better than they were in the previous edition, that still doesn't mean your plasma weapons are useless. Things will change, to be sure, but no weapon is useless--they just have their own place and time to be used.

Darrian13 wrote:Yes volume of fire is now the key with everyone getting cover saves, and better ones from forests. The best weapons seem to be deffguns, auto cannons, devourers and scatterlasers due to their high rate of fire and pooint cost compared to las cannons and plasma cannons.

I have an opinion question for MEQ players, which is now the better tac squad heavy weapon, the ML or the HB?

I would still take the missile launcher, as it's flexibility is key for marine squads. Tac squads need to be able to do everything well, as you don't really have the points to have lots of specialist squads.

However, for devs, I actually prefer the plasma cannon now in the new rules, though the HB is more of an attractive option now.

we will see how things turn out when the new codex is upon us.

putting heavy specialized weapons on more mobile units seams a lot more tactically sound then throwing a lot of small arms fire at them.

I put melta's on my landspeeders and my dreadnought, get them into position and blast away. it just hurts a little that my LS can no longer shoot a heavy flamer and multimelta.

yes there will be more saves, but thatas because there will be more shooting.

I've played a few dozen games of 5th now I must say that elevated positions have a nice way of getting no cover shots against enemy units. My LGS has a large amount of three storied ruins terrain. From six inches up, you can easily fire over intervening squads and other small obstructions.

Also, when firefights do get to double tap range, the Plasma Gun still mows down MEQ's and termies better than anything else.

I've always relied on volume firepower with my Eldar unless it comes to tanks. I've seen entire marine squads fall to a hail of shuriken in one turn.

Buckets of dice really is what worked for my Orks. I finally got to use them in a 1500 point RTT. The amount of dice I get to roll was getting silly. Literally, these are some of the numbers of dice I had to roll for units:

Lootas-42 dice (this happened several times)
Boyz- 50 dice (didn't expect Shootas to be that effective vs. non MEQ)

Assaults- 70-80 attacks on the charge. Another absolute shocker. I thought 30 Boyz mobs were cool so I didn't have to take Morale tests. I never imagined what happens when 25-30 Boyz actually make it to assault.

I've actually had to start developing a system to accurately and speedily roll buckets of dice.

I'm still debating the necessity of Rokkits in my Boyz mobs. Just taking basic weapons seemed to work out very well.

Amen! I am playing Orks in a 2000 point league and I spend more time in my turns rolling dice than moving my 180+ models.

Shoota boys shoot= 56 dice
Lootas shoot= 15-45 dice
Slugga boys assault= 116 dice

I need more dice

Darrian13 wrote:@Typeline, Do you find chaos dreads to be effective? To me, they are such a sub par performer, I just can't justify fielding them. I have 2 beautiful Black Legion Forgeworld dreads and I have not fielded them in 5th and I only fielded them once in 4th.

Despite the crazed special rule they are pretty good. I've actually retooled them since I posted that after I did some testing and I like them better with all ranged. So they are both ML/HB now. Their main weakness is their ability to turn around and double fire on all your guys. But that is a matter of deployment really. I rarely ever get a crazed result though. The main trick I use to make them effective is run them toward a HtH orientated squad. Then when I'm getting a little close I just start walking backwards laying them to waste as they keep trying to get into CC with the dread. The only things that really hurt are 1's on Crazed in spearhead on the first turn. I really hate seeing 6's on it late game though. They just run right into the enemy with A2. Then I don't know what is going happen. but luckily that has not happened so far. But I have rolled several ones for that fire frenzy when I was a mere 8 inches from the enemy. I got assaulted next turn but by a very small squad. At 105 pts. a piece they are a bargain.

Edit: They have also first turned both rolled a 1 right next to each other. But they fire frags/HBs and they can't hurt each other that way.

Edit2: I use the Dreads for anti-everything but armor. Occasionally I'll have them fire a Krak at a nearby vehicle. I'd give them Lascannons but I don't want them to kill each other on turn 1.

The low AP stuff will be pretty limited against troops but will still be needed for MCs which won't be getting cover saves very easily, nor are as easy to take down with powerfists (at least in my early playing and observation). Overall you just can't rely on las/plas spam like you could in 3/4ed but not having some low AP will cause problems for an allcomers list.

@Deadshane, I love LC's too but what are the other 9 guys in the squad shooting at? If you are using the LC to kill vehicles then you are paying alot of points for 9 extra wounds on your LC.

For CSMs, I think you have a point but DA/BA and upcoming SM can use combat squads to minimize this. 5 guys with lascannon in cover for long range work and 5 guys with flamer or MG for close up work or other duties. Also current SM can still take 5/6 man lascannon squads.

True, I did not take combat squads into account.

I am finding Heavy Flamer Sentinels to be vastly improved in 5th. If I have marines in cover, I send the plasma gunners elsewhere and let the heavy flamers settle the score!

That makes me think that the new LR Redeemer is going to be one of the most lethal units in the game. AP3, No cover, ST6, and two templates! Thats a lot of dead MEQ's

The more I read on 5th Edition(Again haven't had a chance at a game due to being in the a gamer free zone when not at college) the more I fear for my Thousand Sons

I have 2 squads of 'em and they do seem to have taken quite the hit. Their 4+ Inv save has become nigh useless with cover being so prevalent though I can stroll out into open area with the same kind of defense as being behind a barricade.

Moving d6 and firing 7 shots at 24' (maybe an extra str 8 ap 1 though wind seems to be a much nicer choice) and back stepping the whole way as enemies approach might be workable. I'm just thinking that unless the enemy is making a beeline for my guys out of cover the high ap shots might

I mean I can continue to guess at possibilities but tbh need to try them out. Anyone had any expierience with them?

I have always favored volume of fire over powerful but single shots like lascannons. I love heavy bolters, scatterlasers, multilasers, the old gryphon mortars, and anything else that can make my enemy roll buckets of armor saves. I figured the more saves I make them make the more they will fail. Plus when I do field strong weapons I like things like 4 lascannon dev squads so its still a high volume of fire for the squad. Put enough lead/las in the air and something is bound to die.

@Voodoo_chile, yes thousand Sons took a huge hit. I played against them twice in 5th and both times they were very weak. My GK's outshot them from cover and my Orks just demolished them. Thousand Sons are just bad in 5th.

Darrian13 wrote:@Voodoo_chile, yes thousand Sons took a huge hit. I played against them twice in 5th and both times they were very weak. My GK's outshot them from cover and my Orks just demolished them. Thousand Sons are just bad in 5th.

Damn, just damn.

Guess I might have to invest in some of those Plague Marines I hear so much about. Poor Tzeentch,never gets a break.