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I brought my Khador-Sorscha list to my local store for some 500 army point pick-up-games and found out...was told basically...that it was stupid to use Winter Guard even with officer/standard bearer boosts. I get it that point-munchers find better alternatives, but are we to the point in this game where you look like a silly newb if you put certain units in your list?

What other noteable army no-nos are out there? I need a leg up on who to make fun of the next time I take my Khador out in public?

I'll start with Khador and Winter Guard. It really cracks some people up to see them on the table.





BTW, I use Winter Guard simply as a screening unit for my mortars and Iron Fang. I know they're going to die, but anything attacking them is not attacking something else. Their combined ranged attack has then proved harmful to anyone who ignores them. I've been happy with them in the role I have in mind for this expendable unit.

The only people I see complain about certain units like this are the power-gamer wannabes who put entirely too much stock in the musings of a tiny percentage of those who post on the official PP forums.

i.e. Douchebags


Use what you want, and practice with it. The best players locally can win with whatever they put down on the table, usually while making the whole thing look effortless. Fortunately, we don't really have anyone locally who puts so much stock in the vocal minority.

My units that kinda fall into this category are the Bane Thralls and Tharn Ravagers. I have both Bane Knights and Gatormen (their respective "superior" counterparts), but I use the Thralls more often than the Knights, and I have yet to use the Gatormen while I use the Tharn all the time.

I like my winter guard and have had good luck with them using them in a similar fashion as you, especially with Irusk. I also like Mekaniks, Herne & Jonne, stormsmiths, kossites, acuraii, and drillers.

I agree with Blue Loki. It's not about units, or models, it's about how you play.

The only unit I'm giving up on before even using them are Sam MacHorne & Co., and I still may just paint 'em up and give 'em a talon or a mariner or something to 'jack marshal. I'd like 'em better if they were 66 points instead of 76 points for a min. squad. They're just awfully expensive and squishy for what they do, and I've yet to see them or hear of them work well in 500 point games (which is what I usually play).

I love my Winterguard. They're the only non-support unit of which I own two. CRA is useful enough to me that I used them before all the add-ons came out. With all the new toys, they become a Khadoran Army Knife of Killing. No amount of nay-saying will keep me from using them if I choose to use them. I will acknowledge that they are fragile, even with Tough. But if someone tells me they outright suck, that only lessens my opinion of that person's skills.

Of the Khador units I own and have assembled, the only one I don't like is Kossites. I can see how they are useful, but everytime I use them, they just die or run away the next turn. They're cheaper than most of our other units, but I still think 9 points a model is too steep for a throwaway unit. Better players than I could probably use Sorscha's or the Old Witch's feat to prevent retaliation on the Kossites, but in the times I've tried it, I've never been able to get that to work.

For my Circle army, I like the Ravagers, but they were always hit or miss for me. As in, they hit when I charge, but miss when I don't. I haven't had a chance to try out the Shaman, but it looks like he makes them more killy and more durable. Combined with some forests and/or support spells like Brutality or Revivify, and I think they'll be great.

Anyways, I guess my point is play what you want. If you have a task that certain unit you like that others don't can accomplish, screw the haters, and take that unit.

As a side note, I hope Beast-09 costs 115 points or less. Here's why:

eSorscha
Grigorovich
Drakhun (+Dismount)
Winterguard (10+UA+WA)
Winterguard (10+WA)
Winterguard (10+WA)
Mortar
Mortar
Field Gun
Field Gun

635 points.

All I need to get is 10 more Winterguard, 1 more Rocketeer, and Beast-09.

Here's the Winterguard list I used before the UA etc. came out:
Irusk
Kovnik
-Destroyer
2x Mortar
10 Winterguard
Widowmakers
Greylords
Manhunter

Always had fun with this list and won a fair share of games with it (or variations of it) too.

The only real complaint that some have is how the figs look. While not as sexy as the Widowmakers, they're pretty awesome in a super-deformed soviet kind of way.

winter Guard aren't bad,.... the problem is the Iron Fang Pikemen are the same cost ( give or take 5 points) for the same number of models.

Now I will say this winterguard are like vanilla ice cream, ok on its own but nothing worth talking about. But if you add in some chocolate syrup ( UA) some whipcream (WAx3), Nuts ( kovnic joe), and a lovely cherry ( ESorscha) you end up with something that epecially good. Basicly if you want to play a menoth sytle army without the menoth winterguard are a good pick

Esorscha
kovnic joe
winterguard ( 10 guys ua wa)
winterguard ( 10 guys wa)
winterguard(10 guys wa)
mortar
mortar
field gun
field gun
widowmakers
Kodiak
alexia

is around 750ish you might be able to get a couple units of greylords in there maybe i didn't add up all the points.

How is the field gun? I have one but haven't had a chance to use it yet...

And while we're on the subject of awesome WG lists:
Irusk
Kovnik
-Kodiak
mortar
mortar
field gun (or manhunter)
Max WG
UA
Kovnik Joe
3xrocketeers.

499/500, 17 VPs.

Hrmn. I just need 2 more rocketeers and Kovnik Joe for this...

syr8766 wrote:And while we're on the subject of awesome WG lists:
Irusk
Kovnik
-Kodiak
mortar
mortar
field gun (or manhunter)
Max WG
UA
Kovnik Joe
3xrocketeers.

499/500, 17 VPs.

Hrmn. I just need 2 more rocketeers and Kovnik Joe for this...

You can't take 3 Rocketeers like that. You can only have one WA and one UA per unit, and the Rocketeer can't be attached to weapon crews.

The Field Gun is all right. The range and RAT are decent, but the POW is a little low. It won't reliably damage a high ARM warjack. However, if it damages a heavy once, it's probably made its points back. If you get the critical knockdown, you're gold. Still, I wouldn't take it unless I already grabbed two mortars and I still wanted artillery. Khador has plenty of good, reliable anti-jack choices.

oomiestompa wrote:

syr8766 wrote:And while we're on the subject of awesome WG lists:
Irusk
Kovnik
-Kodiak
mortar
mortar
field gun (or manhunter)
Max WG
UA
Kovnik Joe
3xrocketeers.

499/500, 17 VPs.

Hrmn. I just need 2 more rocketeers and Kovnik Joe for this...

You can't take 3 Rocketeers like that. You can only have one WA and one UA per unit, and the Rocketeer can't be attached to weapon crews.

The Field Gun is all right. The range and RAT are decent, but the POW is a little low. It won't reliably damage a high ARM warjack. However, if it damages a heavy once, it's probably made its points back. If you get the critical knockdown, you're gold. Still, I wouldn't take it unless I already grabbed two mortars and I still wanted artillery. Khador has plenty of good, reliable anti-jack choices.

Whoops! Chalk it up to me misreading the card. Will revise.

Edit:
Irusk
Kovnik
-Destroyer
mortar
mortar
10 Winter guard
Winter guard UA
Winter guard Rocketeer
Kovnik Joe
Greylords Ternion (or field gun and manhunter)

497/500, 18 VPs (field gun and manhunter = 500 points, same vps)

I like this one better anyway.

Quick follow-up. I played a similar list (with Field gun and Manhunter rather than Greylords) against a Magnus list with:
Magnus
2x Renegade
Nomad
Mule
Bokur
Herne & Jonne
Eyriss

Lost in the end (mostly because I forgot to use one of Kovnik Joe's patriotic speeches to give my WG tough--I thought Def. 18 would be enough!--but especially when I whiffed twice when I got Irusk in base-to-base with Magnus despite having full freakin' focus). However, the list performed admirably, junking a Renegade and the mule, immobilizing and ruining the arc node on the other renegade and the cortex (and movement?) on the Nomad, killing Eyriss and H&J, and giving Magnus and his bokur what-for. It really was more a matter of the dice failing me than the list. For the points, the field gun and two mortars were ace, and the Destroyer's bombard and the Rocketeer's panzerfaust didn't hurt either. Now they just have to put a field gun on a warjack.


So there!

I have to say that I've been thinking about the Winter Guard as I look for something else to use besides my IFP.

The once per game order looks pretty cool with the ability to move up, do a CRA (which looks really useful against say Heavy Beasts), and then use the order to move back out of threat range.

Or is there something I'm missing for this?

CRA is really useful for cleanup duty as well, or for dealing with light jacks that can give you a headache (i.e. archnodes).

The orders are pretty awesome. They're pretty good not only for the pop-up attacks, but as a utility order (I used hasten to consolidate after being smacked by the mule, CRAing the Mule for mondo damage, then advancing). I never got to use the CMA from the LT, which is a shame, since in theory, using the boosts from Kovnik Joe (regular boost + Patriotic speech) plus Irusk's feat should make them pretty decent in HTH. Of course, that's in theory, and I don't know if they can live long enough to get 'er done...

My only issue with them is that with the full unit and the UA it's pretty much the same cost as my IFP and I have to wonder why I'd go with the Winterguard over them.

My only reason is that they do have an extended "threat range" of 14" vs. the Pikemen's total range of 11" (13" once per game), and they're not engaged with the enemy afterwards. They don't have the shield wall, but they can spread out to avoid AOE's and their one order lets them increase to DEF 14 as they advance which is pretty nice. Still their armor means that on average rolls from blast damage they're going to go poof.

I think they work fine with Irusk and E-sorscha. I think it's more of a matter of which caster your using and try to build around them. Would I use them with Vlad or the Butcher, no.

I think it also depends on what you're looking for in terms of utility.

Def 14 with Bob & Weave, plus Kovnik Joe making them tough, plus Iron Flesh boosting their def even more (17) makes for a fairly durable unit. Rocketeer gives them even more utility.

IFP+UA are awesome, but fairly transparent, and you've got to get that charge off. Against certain armies in certain situations, I'd rather have my IFP. Other times, I'd rather have the Winterguard.

The caster choice, as Lemartes pointed out, also matters considerably. With pSorscha I want IFP. With Irusk I want Winterguard. With Vlad...I want Uhlans

I love my WG... But then again i HATE jacks so most people say i am a fool (but i say with a drakun and fenris who needs them). I once killed 1/2 of a troll blood army on Sorscha's feat feat turn and the turn after with them. The rocketeer on feat turn has no equal. But they ONLY time i take them is with Sorscha or eSorscha.

But we can all agree Doomreavers are overpriced yea?

I've been told that the Exemplar Errant in my list are newbish, and that the fact that I want to include the Daughters of the Flame makes my playstyle laughable. Most people just tell me to use the Idrians instead of the Daughters, but I prefer their models and I hate doing "what everyone else does".

The trouble with Exemplar Errant is that they're very expensive - and thus, not very points efficient. You pay for their blessed bolts, but then they're saddled with sub-par RAT. They have POW9 weapon master, but they're not terribly fast either.

IMO, what makes the unit worthwhile is Bond of Life and Advance Deploy. This helps the comparitively slow Menite army get to grips with fast armies like Cryx and Khadoran AD hell. Base ARM16 helps too. I primarily used the High Reclaimer, E-Feora, Kreoss and Severius. They are admittedly not very good with Severius, but Kreoss can buff them with Protection of Menoth making them very hard to remove with ARM18. E-Feora makes engaging (or ignoring) them a losing proposition with blazing aura and Silent Bob can always use more souls for the soul god (plus, they make ok revives).

I haven't played in about a year, so take what you will with a grain of salt.

I want to try the Errants with Gravus. They allow him to
move a bit faster to gain his resolve tokens as they're
already 6-12" further up the board when the game starts.